training:practice:ability

[DocGKR]

GOP:

I'm an IDPA Marksman but I have ran a 3.74 FAST, 1.8 Bill Drill, and a 280 FBI Qual in training; thus, I should be scored higher than an IDPA Marksman on paper."

Wow, those are impressive claims; I am just a mediocre shooter and will never attain that level of proficiency. With those numbers, you should be competing for the National Championship--of course what you do by yourself in practice is utterly IRRELEVANT unless you can do it on demand, when other folks are watching/involved, and for real when under stress. Everything else is just unsubstantiated juvenile internet bragging...

[GOP]

edit: nevermind. I'm out.

[ToddG]

This site runs off some of the best shooters here because of that attitude. We had freaking Ben Stoeger and 2 other master class shooters in USPSA who were ran off recently because of the ego of others here.

No, actually they were run off for eliciting people to troll the forum, being disrespectful towards SMEs or Staff (in some cases on the forum and in some cases by PM), or both. If you'd like to discuss the matter further, feel free to PM me or any other member of the forum Staff. It's not relevant to this thread.

If you think DocGKR's surprise at your reported scores is unfounded, I emailed them to a many-times USPSA/IDPA national champion and his response was that you'll no doubt win National Champion this year. You can see where people might find a disconnect between someone who's a MM-class IDPA shooter who didn't even break into the top half at the last major match he shot, and someone who claims he can shoot a sub-4 FAST and 1.80 Bill Drills. While there's certainly a lot more to playing gun games than the skills tested by the FAST & Bill, folks who can turn in such astounding scores on those drills don't tend to rank 79 out of 119.

I'm not intending this as a personal attack and hope it doesn't come across as such. But when you make extraordinary claims that are significantly out of proportion to your demonstrated "rank" in a game (for lack of a better term) certainly you can understand where it creates confusion.

[GOP]

No, actually they were run off for eliciting people to troll the forum, being disrespectful towards SMEs or Staff (in some cases on the forum and in some cases by PM), or both. If you'd like to discuss the matter further, feel free to PM me or any other member of the forum Staff. It's not relevant to this thread.

If you think DocGKR's surprise at your reported scores is unfounded, I emailed them to a many-times USPSA/IDPA national champion and his response was that you'll no doubt win National Champion this year. You can see where people might find a disconnect between someone who's a MM-class IDPA shooter who didn't even break into the top half at the last major match he shot, and someone who claims he can shoot a sub-4 FAST and 1.80 Bill Drills. While there's certainly a lot more to playing gun games than the skills tested by the FAST & Bill, folks who can turn in such astounding scores on those drills don't tend to rank 79 out of 119.

I'm not intending this as a personal attack and hope it doesn't come across as such. But when you make extraordinary claims that are significantly out of proportion to your demonstrated "rank" in a game (for lack of a better term) certainly you can understand where it creates confusion.

I totally understand, I'm not upset at all. I ran a 3.74 FAST on 6-06-12. I ran a 1.8 Bill Drill the same day during the 7m portion of the HCST (I scored a 167 overall). I can tell you exactly were my weakness lies: movement skills. I usually run 5-8 at local club matches, and get beat by guys who are way more efficient than me on the move. I also have no clue how to put together stages, and generally suck under pressure. If I was a national champion this year, I'd be ecstatic. At the last local club match I shot, I came in 3rd on the FAST portion of the testing (i.e. the static test) with a 4.62, the winner and Rudy Project shooter had me by .4 seconds. I'll try to get a video up this week or early next in my training log if you'd like, name a drill to run and I'll do it. You can also PM me and I can PM you my cell number we can talk on the phone if you'd like, I have no reason to lie here (this isn't meant threatening at all, but rather as a friendly gesture).

Here is the FAST variant they ran at the local club, the guy saying "Nice" at the end is a professional Rudy Project shooter who recently won expert I believe at a major match. He beat me by .4 seconds. This was several months ago.



Actually no, I came in 5th overall in the FAST standings that day. The scores were 4.61 (me), 4.25, 4.24, 4.20, and 4.03. The others were experts and 1 master, I can't hang with them during any movement stage. Also, I have the screen shot of the scores that day if necessary. I'd rather not post the others names, but If can post (blacked out) if necessary.

[LittleLebowski]

The real question here is how GOP can get over his stage fright (for lack of a better term). Is the answer only "more competition" or would be formal training/ Marine Corps Drill Instructors berating him as he shoots, perhaps?

[Chris Rhines]

There's something to be said for, "Moar competition," especially if improving your competition performance is your goal.

From 2004-2007, my only shooting practice was a match almost every weekend and some dryfire. I'd get out to the range to practice live maybe 5-6 times per year. But at the end of 2007, I was a B-class USPSA shooter with a couple of regional podium finishes and a Nationals invite. Competing more will absolutely help your overall performance.

-C

[ToddG]

Here is the FAST variant they ran at the local club, the guy saying "Nice" at the end is a professional Rudy Project shooter who recently won expert I believe at a major match. He beat me by .4 seconds. This was several months ago.

So... am I just not seeing it, or is there no 3x5 in the head? Hitting the 36 square inch head box is a lot different than hitting the 15 square inch card that the drill is designed around. Those are still very good times but it's not a real F.A.S.T. That could be where some of that confusion came from. It's like if you said you shot El Prez in under five seconds, but it was an "El Prez" run at five yards and all you had to do was hit an IPSC target rather than the A-/0-zone.

The real question here is how GOP can get over his stage fright (for lack of a better term). Is the answer only "more competition" or would be formal training/ Marine Corps Drill Instructors berating him as he shoots, perhaps?

In my experience, the best way to get over match stress is to shoot matches. But you definitely need to be cognizant of the mental game, as some people call it. I've certainly seen folks who were easily rattled even though they've been shooting longer -- and at a higher level -- than their calmer competitors.

I think the general stress inoculation stuff (a la the USMC stuff LL mentioned, or the C.U.S.S. class Jack Leuba and I have done) definitely can help, but it's a mistake to assume that inoculation to one kind of stress will provide the same level of inoculation against other stress. The best example I can give is the reverse situation: plenty of guys who've been through USMC -- or even actual combat -- get stressed at matches. It may not affect them as severely but it's there.

[GOP]

So... am I just not seeing it, or is there no 3x5 in the head? Hitting the 36 square inch head box is a lot different than hitting the 15 square inch card that the drill is designed around. Those are still very good times but it's not a real F.A.S.T. That could be where some of that confusion came from. It's like if you said you shot El Prez in under five seconds, but it was an "El Prez" run at five yards and all you had to do was hit an IPSC target rather than the A-/0-zone.

There isn't a 3x5, I'm not really sure why they don't run it with one. My 3.74 time was with a 3x5 and concealment (PPQ in a Dale Fricke holster AIWB), but again, I guess I don't see how that is so magnificent. I'm pretty sure I have an old run at the FAST that is around 4.7 also from several months ago with my Go Pro somewhere. It's funny, because I broke through a HUGE plateau when Ben Stoeger told me in PM here that you have to miss a lot to make big progress. The video is from April 30, he told me that on May 19th or so. I was stuck in the 4.5 range, and after about a month or so I hit a 3.74 FAST (the real kind). It was only one run, and it was after 11 other runs, but it counted. Can I do that on demand? Heck no. My on demand time is around 4.3 seconds or so. I'd almost classify the 3.74 as a lucky run, because I nailed the reload. The 1.8 bill drill at 7m on an 8" circle isn't that impressive IMO, It was from AIWB. I drew at the bottom of the plate and rode the sights up, I don't feel that is so great. I don't know how to move efficiently, and I lose a ton of time there in matches. Stage plans and how to shoot certain props? You can forget that. My skills there are non-existent. I also get nervous, and remember shaking on the first stage of the major match (it was a SHO/WHO stage too, my score/time blew). So basically, it looks like I suck badly under stress and with movement, but I'm a solid shooter when Im static at the range. Well, basically we have just discovered what I already knew, Im a range God with no real skills. I want to fix this, so any help would be awesome. I really think I can be good at this sport, and I love it, it is the only sport I've ever been naturally gifted at.

[DocGKR]

GOP--Check fire. I am not insulting you and disparaging your skills. I was quite clear I cannot shoot anywhere near that well. As I stated, your numbers are VERY impressive and if repeatable will put you in contention for a National Championship. But as I stated before, they don't mean anything unless you can do it on demand, under stress, with witnesses. Also, the video you shared is nice, but 4.61 is not 3.74; and as others noted, the entire head box is easier than an actual 3x5 scoring area.

[GJM]

GOP, consider this. If you go thru the Pistol-Training list of best FASTest performance in each class, you will not find a single time under 4.0 seconds -- and the best time I see is 4.59. When you state you can shoot sub 4.0 FASTests and that inside an afternoon, you can shoot a sub 4.0 FASTest with ANY striker fired pistol you pick up, you have shot one arrow through the notion that dedication to a platform yields results, a second arrow through the hearts of those of us that are working our hardest, yet unable to shoot a sub 4.0 FASTest, except by going at a speed that the hits are more luck than skill, and probably pegged the BS meter on most folks that participate in this forum.

Last summer, I posted a video here, where I shot a 4.4 or 4.5 legitimate (concealment, etc.) FASTest. A few months later, when I showed up at Todd's course, the best clean FASTest I managed was 5.9, and it was the third attempt which didn't count towards class standing. I think Ben Stoeger suggested, more or less, add 2 seconds to personal best to get what can be done on demand, in a setting like a FASTest at a class with your peers watching.

I have no basis to know whether you can shoot a sub 4 FAST on demand, but if you were asking for advice, I would suggest to lay low on the times and claims, until you show up at a TLG class, or similar formal event, and make it happen. Will you be attending the TLG class at the end of September in NM?