Help Recovering Subgun Stance Addict Use AR15

[Sanch]

I learned how to shoot AR15s a while back with nose to charging handle on A2 iron sights. And I’d run the buttstock fully collapsed if wearing armor or one notch out if no armor. I bought into the magpul AFG back in the day and pulled the gun into my pec using a squared off sub gun stance. I later got aimpoints with full cowitness which enabled me to continue a tactical turtle hunched stance.

I took a few carbine classes back in the day and they were all poor instructor to student ratios in retrospect, I didn’t know better. Offhand I think it was like 30:1 for most of my classes, running 2 firing lines, and I was never corrected and I think this style of shooting 15 to 2o years ago this was considered okay.

Fast forward to present and while I still think my sub gun shooting style is fine for me as a civilian, everyone else has moved on to running longer buttstocks with head upright. I used to think it was just a competition thing which I’m not interested in competing but now I realize I’m the asshole all along.

So I went out and bought a magpul fixed buttstock, which is about an A1 length, and I bought a unity 2.26” aimpoint mount because also I want to use an aimpoint under dual tube NODs. I picked up a KAG mini foregrip thingie.

Shooting feels really weird but it’s understandable since I was shooting subgun style for so long. I’m open to change now after being resistant for a while. I’ll get some professional instruction soon using more modern methods but want to set up the carbine and get some dry work in.

Here’s what I’m wondering:

Any tips on shooting with the 2.26” aimpoint mount because I can’t get a good cheek weld anymore.

Am I being stupid for picking up a fixed magpul A1 stock to play with? I am reading that’s the length people should be running their adjustable stock to generally, and new armor plates are cut different, and I’m not putting the buttstock on my pec anymore. I like the durability and simplicity. One less thing to think about, unless it’s really really suggested I go to an adjustable stock. My current adjustable stock is the first gen UBR which people seem to hate.

What kind of foreend system should I be using? Seems like tons of options and I backordered a MAWL laser so I need something that lets me manipulate laser and light. I’m going to order a magpul mini straight foregrip for $20 and then I’ll have most options to play with since I already have AFG, KAG and Mlok mini AFG. I like the idea of the mini vert foregrip using a half-on grip.

Any tips from other sub-gun stance shooters turned modern day battlefield studs using upright stances and longer buttstocks?

[M2CattleCo]

2.26” is tall. I’ve done 1.55”-KAC Skyscraper and like 1.93” best with an Aimpoint Micro. The big Aimpoints I like about 1.7”.

I was a NTCH guy for a long time and stayed proficient with irons. I kept the stock on the 1st click out on a Colt tube (about the 2nd click out on a 6 position). With a short 7” handguard and a VFG used as an AFG, I was comfortable and did fine. It’s a very compressed, square stance, works very well with tall (taller than lower 1/3) optic mounts, and it keeps the center of mass of the carbine closer to you and is very quick to transition.

What I dislike about running a stock short is that with one hand, your controlling the whole thing with the grip, and even with a more vertical grip, it cramps my elbow and wrist and is fatiguing.

I like to adjust my stock to hit the crook of my elbow with my arm bent at 90 degrees. That allows me to roll my strong hand in and pull the stock tight into my bicep and the gun is a lot easier to control. It also gets the stock lower at high port and gives more control then too.

Ditching back up irons, and pretty much irons in general has allowed me to focus on performance without looking back.

This is where I’m at right now. Not much different than 10 years ago, but there’s been a lot of short lived things in-between.

[Sig_Fiend]

I know this probably isn't what you want to hear but, I'd put a hold on buying any more gear and get yourself to a carbine class with a reputable instructor. The class announcements forum is a good place to start.

Starting with a hardware solution to a software problem is not the most effective place to start. Occasionally someone will get it right or get lucky starting there. That's probably the exception to the rule. Here's the thing, starting with the hardware side is an endless rabbit hole. Depending on a person's personality type, it's also potentially a recipe for paralysis by analysis. For example, I could ask you how soon are you really going to get NVGs? It might be quite some time (I'm just making this up). As such, I could recommend that what you really need is a 1.93" mount to split the difference, feel more natural, and get you up to speed quicker. That could be valid, but it could also send you down a rabbit hole for several months and derail any actual progress in technique.

The above was just a made up example, so don't take that as an actual recommendation. I say all this because, while you're asking a software question, based on your story it sounds like you're jumping down a hardware rabbit hole with all the accessories you're ordering and swapping out. I mean, you just ordered a $3K laser... but you're asking what rail system to get? Not trying to be a jerk but, you literally just paid for 2 cases of 5.56 at today's prices, and 2-5 training classes, depending on instructor and round count. Really think about that. Speaking as someone OCD and that's a self-proclaimed SME in paralysis by analysis, man I'm just trying to save you a lot of hassle and expense.

With a good course, a solid instructor will put you through drills and setup "golden nugget" moments. Those will be invaluable to you in learning better and more competent decision making to begin answering these questions for yourself.

[theJanitor]

My stock is 11" from the end of the receiver, and I use the 2.26" unity. and I've ditched the irons, too. I'm pretty squared up, but you probably just need to get used to the jaw-weld. Not a cheek-weld

[Caballoflaco]

Keep at it. It can take a minute to get used to a new technique if it’s different than what your used to. You can also try building up the stock with some taped on foam pad or cardboard to see if one of magpul’s cheek risers would be worth buying.

[LJP]

My advice, worth exactly what you paid for it... go take a carbine class with Bill Rapier (AmTac Shooting). I’m nobody, but I’ve done a fair amount of training with the carbine over the past 20 years to include Howe, Pannone, Defoor, and Rapier. I would go with a lower mount for your optic (lower 1/3) and just get a standard adjustable stock that’s adjusted for your correct length of pull. I’m short, so I like one click in. I used NTCH for a long time after taking my first carbine class with Paul Howe, but Defoor blew that completely out of the water. Train with Rapier, he brings a lot to the table in the areas that you identified in your post and he has the operational experience to back up what he’s teaching.

[HCM]

I learned how to shoot AR15s a while back with nose to charging handle on A2 iron sights. And I’d run the buttstock fully collapsed if wearing armor or one notch out if no armor. I bought into the magpul AFG back in the day and pulled the gun into my pec using a squared off sub gun stance. I later got aimpoints with full cowitness which enabled me to continue a tactical turtle hunched stance.

I took a few carbine classes back in the day and they were all poor instructor to student ratios in retrospect, I didn’t know better. Offhand I think it was like 30:1 for most of my classes, running 2 firing lines, and I was never corrected and I think this style of shooting 15 to 2o years ago this was considered okay.

Fast forward to present and while I still think my sub gun shooting style is fine for me as a civilian, everyone else has moved on to running longer buttstocks with head upright. I used to think it was just a competition thing which I’m not interested in competing but now I realize I’m the asshole all along.

So I went out and bought a magpul fixed buttstock, which is about an A1 length, and I bought a unity 2.26” aimpoint mount because also I want to use an aimpoint under dual tube NODs. I picked up a KAG mini foregrip thingie.

Shooting feels really weird but it’s understandable since I was shooting subgun style for so long. I’m open to change now after being resistant for a while. I’ll get some professional instruction soon using more modern methods but want to set up the carbine and get some dry work in.

Here’s what I’m wondering:

Any tips on shooting with the 2.26” aimpoint mount because I can’t get a good cheek weld anymore.

Am I being stupid for picking up a fixed magpul A1 stock to play with? I am reading that’s the length people should be running their adjustable stock to generally, and new armor plates are cut different, and I’m not putting the buttstock on my pec anymore. I like the durability and simplicity. One less thing to think about, unless it’s really really suggested I go to an adjustable stock. My current adjustable stock is the first gen UBR which people seem to hate.

What kind of foreend system should I be using? Seems like tons of options and I backordered a MAWL laser so I need something that lets me manipulate laser and light. I’m going to order a magpul mini straight foregrip for $20 and then I’ll have most options to play with since I already have AFG, KAG and Mlok mini AFG. I like the idea of the mini vert foregrip using a half-on grip.

Any tips from other sub-gun stance shooters turned modern day battlefield studs using upright stances and longer buttstocks?

Take a deep breath, put down the AR, plate carrier, laser, NVG etc you are way over thinking this / way to spun up in tacticool hype.

It’s just like any other rifle.

To improve we often need to start over. Get yourself a 10/22 or equivalent, find an Apple Seed event and focus on basic marksmanship and positional shooting without all the bullshit.

Once you get your mind right, go back to the AR and take training with sone reputable national instructors such as Mime Pantone, Bill Rapier, Steve Fisher etc.

Re: The 2.26 optic mount if you can’t articulate why you are running it, you need to reconsider. Purpose drives gear choices.

[Sanch]

Take a deep breath, put down the AR, plate carrier, laser, NVG etc you are way over thinking this / way to spun up in tacticool hype.

It’s just like any other rifle.

To improve we often need to start over. Get yourself a 10/22 or equivalent, find an Apple Seed event and focus on basic marksmanship and positional shooting without all the bullshit.

Once you get your mind right, go back to the AR and take training with sone reputable national instructors such as Mime Pantone, Bill Rapier, Steve Fisher etc.

Re: The 2.26 optic mount if you can’t articulate why you are running it, you need to reconsider. Purpose drives gear choices.

Thanks for advice on instructor list, I’ll keep a look out for them coming to my area.

A local instructor and SWAT friend independently suggested a 2.26 mount when I mentioned I bought dual tube NODs. I then took a class with the 2.26 mount and NODs. I was able to hit steel at 100 yards easily, with a brilliant splash under NODs but it felt weird without a cheekweld since all of my carbine shooting time date has been NTCH using a super shortened buttstock on my pec.

The purpose for the 2.26 as I understand it is to being the reticle closer up to my NODs field of view. I tried with my lower 1/3 aimpoint and wasn’t able to pickup the dot without weird positioning and a lot of effort.

[HCM]

Thanks for advice on instructor list, I’ll keep a look out for them coming to my area.

A local instructor and SWAT friend independently suggested a 2.26 mount when I mentioned I bought dual tube NODs. I then took a class with the 2.26 mount and NODs. I was able to hit steel at 100 yards easily, with a brilliant splash under NODs but it felt weird without a cheekweld since all of my carbine shooting time date has been NTCH using a super shortened buttstock on my pec.

The purpose for the 2.26 as I understand it is to being the reticle closer up to my NODs field of view. I tried with my lower 1/3 aimpoint and wasn’t able to pickup the dot without weird positioning and a lot of effort.

Seriously, do it with a basic .22 AR if you want but go back to basics at an apple seed before you jump in with Pannonne, Fischer, Brokos, Green Ops etc.

Re: high mounts

The question is primacy.

Does a 2.25' mount fit YOUR needs. Not Instgram needs.

Do you mostly shoot under NODS ? Do you need to be able to do passive aiming under NODS to avoid compromising yourself when fighting NODS equipped enemies ?

If the answer to either or both of these questions is no, then using a laser under NODS and going back to a lower 1/3 co-witness is indicated. If the answer is yes, then a cheek riser is in order.

An example of primacy: The SWAT guys at work have both white lights and PEQ-15's on their rifles. They have the white light mounted forward at the muzzle end of the rail and the PEQ mounted at the back of the rail just in front of the Receiver and RDS.

People who don't understand the "why" have commented that is "wrong" because that is not how the military does it.

But my guys don't do what the military does. They are cops so their priority / likely uses are: Day light, low light under white light, and low light under NODS a distant 3rd.

The military does Low light under NODS, Daylight with white light a distant 3rd. Mission drives the gear.

The original 1.93 mounts were created to clear large IR lasers. the subsequent 2.04 and 2.25 mounts are for passive NOD use and have secondary applications for people who have certain neck / shoulder mobility issues. If those don't apply to you, you cant complain when they don't produce the results you want.

[Sanch]

Re: high mounts

The question is primacy.

Does a 2.25' mount fit YOUR needs. Not Instgram needs.

Do you mostly shoot under NODS ? Do you need to be able to do passive aiming under NODS to avoid compromising yourself when fighting NODS equipped enemies ?

If the answer to either or both of these questions is no, then using a laser under NODS and going back to a lower 1/3 co-witness is indicated. If the answer is yes, then a cheek riser is in order.
.

Yes, interested in passive IR work against NODs equipped enemies. May sound like fantasy but there’s at least some AntiFa buying NODs with their stimmy checks. And newer iPhones can pick up IR really well in the camera so it’s just a matter of someone using their iPhone as a NOD.

Is it likely, no, but it’s also unlikely I’ll need NODs at all. I do have a laser but I want to be able to do passive work, too. Also, I think the need for passive work will increase over time. 20 years ago MIL and PD could shine IR lights and lasers anywhere. Now they can’t. I am not a professional shooter and I see the writing on the wall of more people having NODs and high end cell phone cameras, so I want to learn right now how to shoot passively under NODs, not do something else, and in 5 years when NODs are a bigger threat, change again.

I don’t use Instagram so I’m not sure what anyone there is posting and I’m not posting pics of my gear anywhere. So definitely not doing it to look cool.

Does anyone make cheek risers for fixed AR stocks? For collapsible stock the charging handle would get in the way. The only cheek risers I’ve seen for ARs are dedicated sniper stocks with the riser built in.