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Thread: Out of State Trust?

  1. #1
    Site Supporter entropy's Avatar
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    Out of State Trust?

    Is this a possibility?

    In short, permanent address is a non-NFA state. Own property (including a home) in a NFA legal state. Can a Trust be created to hold the items and have said items stored securely in the NFA state? The trust would obviously need to be created in the legal state.

    I know...call an attorney.

    Figured I ask here initially since this is my first dip into the NFA pool. I’d like to do a trust for other reasons as well. I know they have lost a lot of the convenience they used to have.

    Anyone ever hear of doing this?
    Working diligently to enlarge my group size.

  2. #2
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    First hit on The Google...

    nfa trust out of state
    https://blog.princelaw.com/2011/01/1...ked-questions/

    10. May a trustee reside in a different state? Yes, a trustee may reside in a different state; however, the firearm cannot be taken out of the state where registered without the trustee having filed and received an approved application (BATFE Form 5320.20) to temporarily transport the firearm outside of the registered state.
    "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." - Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

  3. #3
    Site Supporter entropy's Avatar
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    I know that. My concern is over the permanent residency in the non NFA state.

    I understand that in order to transport out of the registered state, a 5320.20 must be filed.
    Working diligently to enlarge my group size.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropy View Post
    Is this a possibility?

    In short, permanent address is a non-NFA state. Own property (including a home) in a NFA legal state. Can a Trust be created to hold the items and have said items stored securely in the NFA state? The trust would obviously need to be created in the legal state.

    I know...call an attorney.

    Figured I ask here initially since this is my first dip into the NFA pool. I’d like to do a trust for other reasons as well. I know they have lost a lot of the convenience they used to have.

    Anyone ever hear of doing this?
    Should be fine. There's no definition of residency in the NFA, but the GCA regulatory definition covers this (See Example 2):

    State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

    Example 1.
    A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.
    Example 2.
    A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.
    Example 3.
    A, an alien, travels to the United States on a three-week vacation to State X. A does not have a state of residence in State X because A does not have the intention of making a home in State X while on vacation. This is true regardless of the length of the vacation.
    Example 4.
    A, an alien, travels to the United States to work for three years in State X. A rents a home in State X, moves his personal possessions into the home, and his family resides with him in the home. A intends to reside in State X during the 3-year period of his employment. A is a resident of State X.

    27 C.F.R. 478.11.

    This is not legal advice, and I am not your attorney.

  5. #5
    Site Supporter entropy's Avatar
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    Thanks much.

    I had looked into the trust route years ago but never followed through. We have different trusts in each state for various things and residency and tax issues on each get pretty complex, which is why I pay someone to keep it all sorted out. This, however seems pretty straight forward now that I’m looking a bit deeper. A NFA dealer in the state in question pointed me to the Silencer Shop website and they seem to take “straight forward” to a whole new level.

    Lots of homework to do....
    Working diligently to enlarge my group size.

  6. #6
    I’m no lawyer.

    My thoughts are that no one will give a shit about any of what you described.

    The issue I foresee is when the tax stamp processes and you go to transfer the NFA items into your possession, you’ll need a state ID or DL that would be for the state you’re buying the NFA item in, since the transfer at that point would be like buying a regular non-NFA gun.

    If your primary residence is NYC and you own a second house in FL, you can’t can go to a gun store in FL and buy a handgun unless you have a valid Florida state ID or Florida Drivers license. You can’t show the gun dealer a copy of the title of your second house in Florida.

    So, do you have a state ID for your second residence? If not, go to the DMV in that second state and get one. As far as I know you can have a drivers license from the dmv in your primary residence and a second state ID non-driver license from a DMV in a state that’s your secondary residence. Of course, with the government, you’re now dealing with potentially conflicting definitions of residency. There’s what the IRS says, what the State of NY Tax Collector says, what the NY DMV says, what the FL DMV says, what the ATF says, and the constitution says “shall not be infringed” but that’s the least relevant government document for your scenario. So good luck parsing that out how different entities define residency but if you can get a state ID from the DMV of your second state, you should be good.

    Once you have the new State ID, then none of the rest should matter. I wouldn’t volunteer to the gun dealer that your “primary residence is in NYC”, or that your drivers license is NY State, I would simply say “I am a Florida resident, here is my Florida State ID and here is my Florida NFA trust” which is all true with no lying.

    The gun dealer will ask, “is this address on your Florida State ID up to date, is it where you currently live?” And the truthful answer is yes, at that point in time it’s where you’re currently living and where the ATF can track you down if the gun is used in a crime. He won’t ask if you intend to return to another second state you declare residency.
    Last edited by Sanch; 11-09-2021 at 01:52 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanch View Post
    I’m no lawyer.

    My thoughts are that no one will give a shit about any of what you described.

    The issue I foresee is when the tax stamp processes and you go to transfer the NFA items into your possession, you’ll need a state ID or DL that would be for the state you’re buying the NFA item in, since the transfer at that point would be like buying a regular non-NFA gun.

    If your primary residence is NYC and you own a second house in FL, you can’t can go to a gun store in FL and buy a handgun unless you have a valid Florida state ID or Florida Drivers license. You can’t show the gun dealer a copy of the title of your second house in Florida.

    So, do you have a state ID for your second residence? If not, go to the DMV in that second state and get one. As far as I know you can have a drivers license from the dmv in your primary residence and a second state ID non-driver license from a DMV in a state that’s your secondary residence. Of course, with the government, you’re now dealing with potentially conflicting definitions of residency. There’s what the IRS says, what the State of NY Tax Collector says, what the NY DMV says, what the FL DMV says, what the ATF says, and the constitution says “shall not be infringed” but that’s the least relevant government document for your scenario. So good luck parsing that out how different entities define residency but if you can get a state ID from the DMV of your second state, you should be good.

    Once you have the new State ID, then none of the rest should matter. I wouldn’t volunteer to the gun dealer that your “primary residence is in NYC”, or that your drivers license is NY State, I would simply say “I am a Florida resident, here is my Florida State ID and here is my Florida NFA trust” which is all true with no lying.

    The gun dealer will ask, “is this address on your Florida State ID up to date, is it where you currently live?” And the truthful answer is yes, at that point in time it’s where you’re currently living and where the ATF can track you down if the gun is used in a crime. He won’t ask if you intend to return to another second state you declare residency.
    You are definitely not a lawyer and don't seem to understand the concept of trusts or other legal entities.

    What you are suggesting is shady as hell. At best.

    The NFA items obtained via a trust are not legally transferred into "your" possession, they are transferred into the Trust's possession.

    Thus the Trust's location rather than your residence is what matters.

    See 18 USC 922(b)(3):

    (b)It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—

    (3)any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;]
    The Trust is a legal entity like a "corporation or other business entity". If the trust maintains a location in the NFA state (i.e. "place of business") and you are the trustee then the trust paperwork is controlling, not your Dl from a non NFA state. The DL is merely confirming your identity as the Trustee.

    https://www.justice.gov/file/18321/download

    I am not a lawyer and anyone doing an out of state NFA trust should definitely spring for an NFA lawyer.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropy View Post
    Thanks much.

    I had looked into the trust route years ago but never followed through. We have different trusts in each state for various things and residency and tax issues on each get pretty complex, which is why I pay someone to keep it all sorted out. This, however seems pretty straight forward now that I’m looking a bit deeper. A NFA dealer in the state in question pointed me to the Silencer Shop website and they seem to take “straight forward” to a whole new level.

    Lots of homework to do....
    I am a big fan of the Silencer shop trust. It's what I use and what I recommend for most.

    But in your circumstances (out of state trust) an NFA lawyer is worth the extra cash.

  9. #9
    Site Supporter CleverNickname's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    If the trust maintains a location in the NFA state (i.e. "place of business") and you are the trustee then the trust paperwork is controlling, not your Dl from a non NFA state. The DL is merely confirming your identity as the Trustee.
    A trustee doesn't have to be a resident of the same state where the trust is located, however in order for a particular trustee to receive a firearm on behalf of the trust from the transferring FFL, that trustee must be a resident of the same state as the trust.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by CleverNickname View Post
    A trustee doesn't have to be a resident of the same state where the trust is located, however in order for a particular trustee to receive a firearm on behalf of the trust from the transferring FFL, that trustee must be a resident of the same state as the trust.
    Any reason they can’t do that by adding another resident of the NFA state to the trust?

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