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Thread: Do you know quality training?

  1. #21
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    I think quality is subjective given the actual needs/level of the trainee. I distinctly remember taking very low level training when I was young and I remember it fondly as providing needed initial structure, but it would never be considered anything approaching top tier training nowadays 25 years on...

    Training is a journey and mindset on how you approach and choose training is everything. What do you actually need and are you being honest with yourself? What are you trying to accomplish and are you ready for what a Tier 1 instructor can provide?

    Dennis.


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  2. #22
    I was not speaking to content. Meaning quality from a CHP class to quality in a NODS CQB class.

    Examples of poor "quality" I have witness from national level or guys that everyone seems to sing the praises of.

    Coordination: I had signed up for a course in TX. I live on the east coast. 5ish days out from the course I lock on all necessary travel. This course was one of those "range address will be provided". I was trying to get a close hotel, so I reached out directly to the instructor. I got a "ohh its cancelled". His website still showed it as active and you could still register for it. He refunded the course fee. But what if I hadnt reached out to him and travelled half way across the country...

    I put a lot of merit into how an instructor does everything outside of training to support successful training.

    To me (this is my opinion only), an email to all participants 10 business days out, confirming timelines, gear requirement, locations etc sets the tone for what I expect from that instructor.

    Timelines: If I am paying you for 2 training days, Im not likely going to be impressed when TD1 is 8hrs total with a 1.5hr break and TD2 goes for 3ish hours

    Content and efficiency: Lots of guys seem to not be able to manage a range to support efficiency. Meaning there is constant tear down and set up. Walking, waiting etc. At times, it seems like steps like this are done to intentionally eat up time, because of lack of content.

    Inclement weather plans: I have seen weather cripple 3 classes. The instructor got cowed by the elements and the students followed suit. The instructor should be leading the class. Not succumbing to events. I understand weather happens. But any seasoned guy should have ideas how to mitigate it, and still meet mission.

    Drill/Training throughput: Again, people not realizing how to maximize time on the range. Dudes are there to rep things and shoot....not stand around

    War stories: I dont really need to dive into this. Im sure there are people that just want to be regaled in GWOT war stories. I dont frankly care. When this becomes a significant (10-15% of total time spent) on the range, thats a problem. Especially when the stories dont support any of the training objectives you are trying to meet.

    Contradictory training methodologies: I look at the total picture of what guys are trying to do (desired endstate) and work it back from there. Through that, you can see a lot of discrepancies in various things. You train A,B,C...but you are trying to count 1,2,3.

    Range Prep: Speaks for itself

    "Movie trailer training": When instructors bounce around with little rhyme or reason. Its essentially like drill book regurgitation. Things are not scored or timed. Things do not logically flow or support one another.

    Those are all examples of what I consider, poor quality training.

  3. #23
    @KEW8338

    That would be like paying top dollar to visit Dwayne Johnson to get on a weight lifting program, only when you get there he's not organized, he's kind of a punk, and he spends 20% of the time sitting everyone down telling stories about the movies he's made but then he follows it up with 'but that's why you lift bro!'

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Apathy of both sides? yes.

    Being upset about it on both sides? not really.

    I used to be upset about it. Now I just worry about myself and my own training/situation. Way less stressful.
    So, just worrying about yourself. You are (we all are) resource constrained in some way shape or form.

    Would it not chap your ass if you spent time researching a course, which received high praise. Only to go to it and it be a bust?

  5. #25
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    So, just worrying about yourself. You are (we all are) resource constrained in some way shape or form.

    Would it not chap your ass if you spent time researching a course, which received high praise. Only to go to it and it be a bust?
    It’s happened. I learned, and learned from, the experience.

    I’ve even been to courses from instructors widely lauded, here and elsewhere, and found my opinion varies from the masses greatly.

    I used to get a lot of shit for asking for people’s pedigrees in the comments of the AAR they’d post. They’d try to make it about me, call me a “Dick” etc. that was pretty much all I needed to know. I think I even had a pretty stock set of questions I’d ask over and over again. When they flew off the handle and got butt-hurt I didn’t need the answers. Things I wanted to know, IIRC, were along the lines of how many classes have you taken, with who, when, etc.

    Now? Shooting is shooting, frankly. It’s ALL entertrainment IMO. If I went to a class and got to hang out with some relatively like-minded dudes, do a little shooting, have a good meal and drinks a couple of times in the evenings, and not be at work, I’d call it a success. I wouldn’t be inclined to get all worked up about it if it didn’t go at the pace I wanted, or teach the things I thought I wanted. I’m already pretty prepared for exactly the type and likelihood of my future gunfight, so at most I’d be sharpening the stone.

    If you feel different,y, I’d suggest you start asking questions as to the pedigree of folks posting reviews and taking them with a grain of salt. Be prepared for them to freak out, and know that the freak out is pretty much all the answer you need.

    Something else I just thought of regarding training...

    I used to think someone was going to finally “teach” me how to shoot. I’m pretty good with a rifle/carbine and I just never understood why I couldn’t be half as good with a pistol (obvious differences aside). I went to class after clas, hoping for the magic. I’d leave a few classes thinking they had bestowed the goodness upon me, only to go home and practice and still not really see any measurable results. I’d dry fire. I’d go to the range weekly. All the shit the internet told me to do. No real improvements. I finally figured out that (a) if self-defense with a pistol is my goal, my current skill set is just fine and (b) if my goal is to get better at shooting matches then I need to shoot more matches and (c) most good shooters come by it natural to one degree or another and asking them to teach you how is kind of like asking a cow to teach you how to give milk and (d) virtually none of these guys has a clue how to “teach” anyway (and no, army teacher teaching doesn’t mean you know how to teach, it means you think you know how to make a cake from a recipe and haven’t one goddamn clue what to do when half the class shows up with no flour) and (e) Randy Cain is the single best TEACHER of ANYTHING I’ve ever had in my lifetime of k-12, undergrad, grad school, 20 years of professional training at work, and 40+ years of various hobbyist classes (music, sports, etc,).
    Does the above offend? If you have paid to be here, you can click here to put it in context.

  6. #26
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    rob_s summed up a very mature training evolution process that many of us have gone through. Especially the realization of what skills are you actually trying to acquire and why.
    I would argue that after you gain a certain level of shooting mechanics mastery, you should spend more time acquiring and training tactical knowledge for your situation. Basically everything you should be seeing, thinking, and doing *before* you pull the trigger.
    Most shooters don't get to operate operationally and tactically deploy very often in real life. Therefore realistic training and what-if scenario thinking becomes your only source of skill building. There are lots of cheap ways to do this in your daily life and likely more helpful in any already unlikely shooting than a 0.25s split savings or sub second AIWB draw...

    Dennis.



    Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis View Post
    rob_s summed up a very mature training evolution process that many of us have gone through. Especially the realization of what skills are you actually trying to acquire and why.
    I would argue that after you gain a certain level of shooting mechanics mastery, you should spend more time acquiring and training tactical knowledge for your situation. Basically everything you should be seeing, thinking, and doing *before* you pull the trigger.
    Most shooters don't get to operate operationally and tactically deploy very often in real life. Therefore realistic training and what-if scenario thinking becomes your only source of skill building. There are lots of cheap ways to do this in your daily life and likely more helpful in any already unlikely shooting than a 0.25s split savings or sub second AIWB draw...

    Dennis.



    Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
    I'm not sure I'm making my point correctly. I'm not talking about the content of the training. It could be a basic handgun, it could be hostage rescue pistol. I'm not speaking to what would be in the course description.

    I'm talking about the administrative/logistical/planning that all goes into good training.

    To draw an analogy using restaurants. I'm not asking if it's a steak house, sushi bar, MacD/BK. I'm asking does the waiter bring you what the menu says, in a timely manner, without spitting in it.

    I agree with damn near all of what Rob S says. I've listened to many a P&S podcasts listening to guys expound on good training, only to see them fail in execution. Again content is irrelevant.

    I've done CQB with Forge. That is high quality training. I may not agree with everything. But from a training quality perspective couldn't be better.

    ECQC with Craig. Same thing. That is a course where you get your money's worth.

    ETA: The more I do, the less I get from courses....when the quality of training is shitty.

    I have done some recent stuff that made me feel like a first timer again, because of the way it was run.

  8. #28
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Admin shit is admin shit. And it’s probably never going to be good in the training industry. A lot of these guys get into it to AVOID having a “real job” to one degree or another, so it’s unlikely that they are going to spend any time at all doing “work”.

    I can vaguely recall issues with an inability of an instructor to answer and email, and snarky annoyed tone when they finally do.

    Most of your issues seem to relate to that facet. I think that it’s just par for the course (get it?!) when it comes to a single dude doing the road warrior thing.

    I also motivated a lot of that by not ever driving more than a couple of hours for training and viewing the whole thing a “well at least I’m outside shooting(ish) and not at work!”

    I was, like you, constantly frustrated by glowing reviews, but that’s why it’s important to evaluate the reviewer’s credentials and ask questions. But then with the haphazard way most of these guys operate, it’s e to rely possible to get a totally different experience from one class to the next as well.
    Does the above offend? If you have paid to be here, you can click here to put it in context.

  9. #29
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    @rob_s - Admin stuff is important. When you get to the range, the targets should be set up, the trainer should have any paperwork you need to fill out ready and waiting for you, the safety/first aid brief should be clear and succinct, assignments for medic/driver/whatever should be made, and any range-specific details should be brought out. The trainer should have an outline of what the class will cover broken down by subject or time. S/he should have a plan on what to do if dangerous weather appears and have that training in his/her hip pocket, ditto if the class ends up being all good, attentive shooters and gets done with the planned training early. Pre-class communication (emails and such) should be answered promptly and professionally.

    This ain't rocket surgery, it's a minimum level of professionalism. We pay these folks $100-300/day and a full line will have 8-12 shooters, so it's not like they're doing it for charity.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by revchuck38 View Post
    @rob_s - Admin stuff is important. When you get to the range, the targets should be set up, the trainer should have any paperwork you need to fill out ready and waiting for you, the safety/first aid brief should be clear and succinct, assignments for medic/driver/whatever should be made, and any range-specific details should be brought out. The trainer should have an outline of what the class will cover broken down by subject or time. S/he should have a plan on what to do if dangerous weather appears and have that training in his/her hip pocket, ditto if the class ends up being all good, attentive shooters and gets done with the planned training early. Pre-class communication (emails and such) should be answered promptly and professionally.

    This ain't rocket surgery, it's a minimum level of professionalism. We pay these folks $100-300/day and a full line will have 8-12 shooters, so it's not like they're doing it for charity.
    Preach

    It's the leg work that sets the stage for quality training.

    Another example. Doing a rifle class, where when barricades are introduced, the dude spends 30 min cobbling crap together on the range.

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