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Thread: Do you know quality training?

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    I'm dropping this here because it falls (to me) under mindset.

    As the title says do you know what quality training is? Additionally, do you think the average consumer in this industry knows what quality training is?

    I'm not speaking to content specifically. Presentation, logistics, efficiency, through put. All things, that to me, make good training. Along with more.

    I bring this up because I've taken multiple "national" level road show guys classes. At the circle jerk aar at the end, everyone seemed happy and pleased. I had a different opinion. Each time bringing it up with the instructor in a side bar.

    From a common metric to me SN/Shivworks has a very well put together product. Back in the day VTAC had a similar experience. When I judge quality of training, those are two I use as metrics for the standard. I have not shot with Pannone but I hear the same about him.

    Thoughts?
    Yes.
    No.

    Noner is legit. Having trained with a number of the big names, Mike is easily in the top three.

  2. #12
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTacTravis View Post
    In martial arts this is what's known as "watering down the art". It's generally considered a bad thing by serious practitioners.

    In martial arts it ends with people believing in things like "pressure points" and "chi", Aikido throws achieved through cooperative Ukes, karate guys who can't take a bar room punch, Krav Maga larping bad@sses, keychain tool toting kubaton warriors, and all the other end products of happy instructors making a living from happy students believing they have now "trained".

    In shooting it's likely part of the rise of the "mindset" guys who think their "warrior mindset" will somehow take over and make up for their mediocre shooting skills.

    Generally it starts with the idea that it's great all the soccer dads are getting some exercise instead of watching football, and at least learning to make a fist and learning to swing at a heavy bag.


    I'm not sure why in the world of shooting we're right back at everyone needing a verbal trophy from the instructor and being ok with this instead of realistic performance reviews of students.
    I’ll tell you something else that martial arts have in common with shooting...


    There’s actual real-world badass that don’t give a shit about any of that, and then there’s a bunch of half-assed, gym/dojo/range (wannabe) bad asses that think it’s some big big problem.
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  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    I’ll tell you something else that martial arts have in common with shooting...


    There’s actual real-world badass that don’t give a shit about any of that, and then there’s a bunch of half-assed, gym/dojo/range (wannabe) bad asses that think it’s some big big problem.
    This is definitely true. You can find "don't really care" people on both sides of the debate.

    Royce Gracie for instance is pretty well known for turning his seminars into photo op meet and greets and doesn't much care what people think about it. Many/most of his seminar attendees are happy with it and he is happy to make his money. And he is definitely a "been there done that" real world bad@ss in that world.

    In academia it's called "grade inflation". Students, profs, and admin alike can be quite happy with the higher GPA's over time. But there are lots of good profs that are pretty upset about it.


    I think the problem with your quoted statement is that it implies only wannabe's care, and all the 'real world guys' don't care. In reality you can find apathy on both sides of the equation.

  4. #14
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTacTravis View Post
    This is definitely true. You can find "don't really care" people on both sides of the debate.

    Royce Gracie for instance is pretty well known for turning his seminars into photo op meet and greets and doesn't much care what people think about it. Many/most of his seminar attendees are happy with it and he is happy to make his money. And he is definitely a "been there done that" real world bad@ss in that world.

    In academia it's called "grade inflation". Students, profs, and admin alike can be quite happy with the higher GPA's over time. But there are lots of good profs that are pretty upset about it.


    I think the problem with your quoted statement is that it implies only wannabe's care, and all the 'real world guys' don't care. In reality you can find apathy on both sides of the equation.
    Apathy of both sides? yes.

    Being upset about it on both sides? not really.

    I used to be upset about it. Now I just worry about myself and my own training/situation. Way less stressful.
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  5. #15
    Member MVS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totem Polar View Post
    Are you a billionaire?
    Not even close. I have however in the past spent money on ammo and training classes like I was.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    As the title says do you know what quality training is? Additionally, do you think the average consumer in this industry knows what quality training is?
    I will caveat this by saying I haven't taken any formal classes yet (not from a lack of desire though). Personally I think I have a good eye for what I would want to model myself after. That and my 'no assholes rule' weeds out a bunch of trainers.

    For me I think 'quality' means different things to different people. But in general the guy that is a carnival barker super tactical ninja that is happy to make money while being paid to shoot and yell at people all day doesn't fly with me. I am more interested in the quiet cool guy that knows how to verbal judo his way out of things rather than just knocking heads. You wind up in jail way less with that kind of approach.

    The quiet dignity of genuine bad ass people resonates with me a lot more. I don't know other people's attitude but mine is shaped from growing up with a real deal Special Forces guy in the house. He never wanted to yell at people. He never wanted to fight. If you met him in the grocery store he would be all 'thank you's and you're welcomes'... far from the appearance of what others try to portray. My theory after years of being around them (and their friends) is that they really have seen how bad people can be and they don't really want to be part of that unless they are forced to do so. Most are kind as they can be and will take jokes and laugh or just be funny. I think they know if they don't offset all the negative they would never ever survive life.

    I don't know how to explain it all but I personally can recognize it when I see it. For whatever reason the loud obnoxious types just turn me off but the cool dudes resonate a lot more and have my full attention. Just that alone weeds out a lot of people that conduct training classes. Basically the louder and more obnoxious stuff I see the more bullshit I suspect.

    I sometimes say trainers and gunsmiths have something in common. That being, regardless of what the sign out front says that has zero bearing on the quality of work they put out.

    When I get the time to do so (and where I don't need to travel 4 states over) I will attend a class provided the class agenda is something I would find of use to a normal every day civilian. That typically means stuff centered around concealed carry or whatever. I typically won't be clearing houses as part of a SWAT team so courses geared that way I tend to pass on (and plus none of the quality classes are cheap) so I tend to try and stay in my lane. If I could afford it I would go all the time but I have to be picky for the time being.

  7. #17
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MVS View Post
    Not even close.
    I think I see the problem with your Batman aspirations.


    Quote Originally Posted by MVS View Post

    I have however in the past spent money on ammo and training classes like I was.
    Now isn’t that the truth...

    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

  8. #18
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    I’ll tell you something else that martial arts have in common with shooting...


    There’s actual real-world badass that don’t give a shit about any of that, and then there’s a bunch of half-assed, gym/dojo/range (wannabe) bad asses that think it’s some big big problem.
    The first rule of being a badass is not talking about being a badass.

    (I'm only half joking)
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

  9. #19
    Member MVS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alamo5000 View Post
    I will caveat this by saying I haven't taken any formal classes yet (not from a lack of desire though). Personally I think I have a good eye for what I would want to model myself after. That and my 'no assholes rule' weeds out a bunch of trainers.

    .
    That is quite a caveat given the point of the post, but I agree with your rule. I have not taken classes with a number of supposedly top notch trainers for this very reason. I was in the Army and went through the police academy. I am not going to pay somebody good money to be treated like that again. (Yes, I understand the point of it in those circumstances). Some of the best trainers I have learned with have actually been some of the nicest guys. E.g. Ernest Langdon, Mike Pannone, Gabe White, Paul Sharp. Now, the downside of being a nice guy is that there are always some people who will take advantage of that. It can be a fine line between maintaining order and being a jerk.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by MVS View Post
    That is quite a caveat given the point of the post, but I agree with your rule. I have not taken classes with a number of supposedly top notch trainers for this very reason. I was in the Army and went through the police academy. I am not going to pay somebody good money to be treated like that again. (Yes, I understand the point of it in those circumstances). Some of the best trainers I have learned with have actually been some of the nicest guys. E.g. Ernest Langdon, Mike Pannone, Gabe White, Paul Sharp. Now, the downside of being a nice guy is that there are always some people who will take advantage of that. It can be a fine line between maintaining order and being a jerk.
    Absolutely. My point I guess is that 'quality' can be somewhat subjective.

    And don't mistake for a minute that I am advocating being a push over.

    Some people respond well to certain things and others don't. I think a good instructor can identify what best suits his or her students. To me it's more than just teaching some technique but rather a mentorship situation.

    You can take the baddest dude amongst Army Rangers and he might be awesome to do stuff but terrible at teaching, particularly if he resorts to flying off the handle at everything possible. Yes sometimes getting on people's case is a requirement but it's not always a requirement. There might be a perfectly capable student that just needs the instructor to slow down a bit or be open to honest questions.

    That's kind of what I am getting at.

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