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Thread: Do you know quality training?

  1. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post
    "Quality" training is a broad topic. Arguably one could make an analogy between good training and good art. If either invoke or inspire a lot of introspection and contemplation then it may very well have been effective even if all you learned was what you DON'T want to do.

    Some things that to me subjectively speak to a "quality" course.

    Time management: Does the instructor start when they say they will and end when they say they will? Does the course have a logical beginning, middle, and end that's repeatable every single time? I say the same things, in the same way, every single weekend and allot myself a plus or minus time window of 10 minutes for an 11 hour day of ECQC on Saturday. I generally don't have to check my watch either because my internal clock and sense of time is synchronized to the consistency of my presentation. One thing I've noticed about combat sports guys who try and crossover into weekend short-course combatives instruction is that generally they are inconsistent and manage time poorly. They teach like they are in a fixed site BJJ gym with a recurring, homogenous group. How often has someone seen a BJJ instructor look over their shoulder at the clock and say something like "Okay guys we'll pick this back up on Thursday"? That doesn't translate well to open enrollment short course formats. I learned this lesson as a police academy instructor from 1992-2012.

    Following that same line of thought, people in high risk professions generally who have to attend mandatory training, have a much lower level of interest and engagement than those who are enthusiasts who are giving up their own time and money freely. I was having a conversation with Greg Thompson of SOCP fame, who has had the mat room contract for a SMU since 1998. It was super interesting listening to his frustration with training soldiers who SHOULD be interested in topics directly related to their survivability and well being and then relate that back to my very own feelings about police academy and in service instruction.

    Driving one's presentation with brevity. Generally speaking motor skill and tactics instruction is best learned experientially, by repetition, with a minimal amount of pedagogy. It's not about more words, but the right words. The more an instructor is talking the less the students are doing. I think if the instructor is speaking less and you are doing more, that's probably a good sign of high quality.

    Engagement. Does the instructor engage with EVERY single person in the class? Quite often instructors tend to favor and spend time with more talented and gregarious students over shyer/meeker ones. Or perhaps the opposite where talented or competent performers are pretty much left to drill on their own while weaker students are addressed. EVERY single person must be connected with for the same relative amount of personal time. I wrote previously about my attempts at doing this with the "name game".

    That's just a couple off the top of my head. We can certainly debate the merit, or lack of a particular instructor's content or curriculum, but I think a "quality" course should always have some of the things I've mentioned above.


    And as an example of how to assess my previous post from the standpoint of quality using the aforementioned three points did I:

    1) Manage your time well?

    2) Drive my writing with brevity?

    3) Create engagement?

  2. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post

    Following that same line of thought, people in high risk professions generally who have to attend mandatory training, have a much lower level of interest and engagement than those who are enthusiasts who are giving up their own time and money freely. I was having a conversation with Greg Thompson of SOCP fame, who has had the mat room contract for a SMU since 1998. It was super interesting listening to his frustration with training soldiers who SHOULD be interested in topics directly related to their survivability and well being and then relate that back to my very own feelings about police academy and in service instruction.

    Driving one's presentation with brevity. Generally speaking motor skill and tactics instruction is best learned experientially, by repetition, with a minimal amount of pedagogy. It's not about more words, but the right words. The more an instructor is talking the less the students are doing. I think if the instructor is speaking less and you are doing more, that's probably a good sign of high quality.

    Engagement. Does the instructor engage with EVERY single person in the class? Quite often instructors tend to favor and spend time with more talented and gregarious students over shyer/meeker ones. Or perhaps the opposite where talented or competent performers are pretty much left to drill on their own while weaker students are addressed. EVERY single person must be connected with for the same relative amount of personal time. I wrote previously about my attempts at doing this with the "name game".

    That's just a couple off the top of my head. We can certainly debate the merit, or lack of a particular instructor's content or curriculum, but I think a "quality" course should always have some of the things I've mentioned above.
    Some thoughts on that:

    Having seen when the instructor caters to those students who do not want to be there, and it rapidly turns into the showtime at 0900 and drinking beers by 1400 type of a day. I respect the guy who can drive on for a full day.

    I was in Fisher/PUC class that was lots and lots of disjointed ideas and talking. Not effective in terms of gaining breadth or depth.

    As for the instructor going to the more talented students comment. An additional outcome is where the "stronger" student (more dominating personality) is messed up, but the instructor will not approach them. OR, there is an instagram star, who the instructor will not fix, because...that's where their next review and # are coming from. This sets a bad precedence to the class, because its usually fairly obvious when it happens.


    Again, I was trying to attack the quality of the training subject, not the quality of the content.

  3. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post

    Having seen when the instructor caters to those students who do not want to be there, and it rapidly turns into the showtime at 0900 and drinking beers by 1400 type of a day. I respect the guy who can drive on for a full day.
    It drains one's soul.


    I was in Fisher/PUC class that was lots and lots of disjointed ideas and talking. Not effective in terms of gaining breadth or depth.
    Not sure what PUC is?

    As for the instructor going to the more talented students comment. An additional outcome is where the "stronger" student (more dominating personality) is messed up, but the instructor will not approach them. OR, there is an instagram star, who the instructor will not fix, because...that's where their next review and # are coming from. This sets a bad precedence to the class, because its usually fairly obvious when it happens.
    Agreed. I've had a few internet "celebrities" in class at this point and have even had other students distracted by them. I have novel ways of managing that issue that are unique to my coursework.

    Again, I was trying to attack the quality of the training subject, not the quality of the content.
    I think that's coming out as the thread progresses.

  4. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post


    Not sure what PUC is?
    "Practical Urban Carbine"

    Fancy way to say 0-300m rifle

  5. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    To me, that is completely unacceptable and the sign of an amateur. To cancel, and not notify.
    Then you might want to scratch Pannone off your prospective list.
    Doesn't read posts longer than two paragraphs.

  6. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    Then you might want to scratch Pannone off your prospective list.
    Sad but true

  7. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post
    Engagement. Does the instructor engage with EVERY single person in the class? Quite often instructors tend to favor and spend time with more talented and gregarious students over shyer/meeker ones. Or perhaps the opposite where talented or competent performers are pretty much left to drill on their own while weaker students are addressed. EVERY single person must be connected with for the same relative amount of personal time. I wrote previously about my attempts at doing this with the "name game".
    I've experienced all of this. I'd add the famous industry instructor who spent much of the class on his phone and lunch away from the students with a film crew. My other peeve is cutting the finial training day way short and starting each late.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post
    enthusiasts who are giving up their own time and money freely.
    I'm in this category - the personal time investment is also considerable. Limits me to 1 class per year unless I can find something without travel.

    The impact of a bad instructor on the enthusiast is significant.

    Thanks for pulling back the curtain a little on how you do it. I've sat through maybe eight to ten of your hot washes and it did not register why it felt so connected. You knew everybody's names and talked in depth about what they brought, gave, and learned. The only instructor I've experienced who matches you in the connection with every student is Paul Howe.
    Last edited by underhook; 03-21-2021 at 11:39 PM.

  8. #78
    Great thread and just read my way through. I separate quality training into two parts: the content and delivery.

    Content: is the fundamental content of the class relevant to my context and it consistent and congruent. Is there a cohesive model behind it or is just a bag of stuff. The measure for me is how deeply it becomes ingrained in my daily life and as I learn more from the instructor over time does it all fit together or am I wrestling with incompatible bits. Am I able to train the techniques, self diagnose issues, measure progress, and make progress.

    Delivery: the content is a must and I can compensate for bad delivery by working harder as a student. The delivery mismatch is normally one of having a different learning model to the instructor and the instructor not being aware. Most of the time if the content is right the delivery is also good. Guessing the care to get content right carries over to the delivery.
    Last edited by underhook; 03-21-2021 at 11:46 PM.

  9. #79
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    Feb 2012
    Location
    Madison, Wisconsin
    “People in high risk professions who have to attend mandatory training generally have a much lower level of interest and engagement than those who are enthusiasts who are giving up their own time and money freely.” - Craig Douglas 03-16-21

    Truer words were never spoken. That’s why I preferred instructing in the police academy and specialized training over conducting quarterly in-service training.

    Most cops & soldiers don’t know what high quality training looks like because they have never been exposed to it, and many would recognize it or appreciate it if they were.

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