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Thread: NATO Standardizes FN's 5.7x28mm Caliber

  1. #31
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    One thing to remember is just because there is a STANAG number for 5.7 it doesn’t mean anybody is going to adopt it. The CZ P01 has a STANAG number as well and I don’t think the Czechs even issue it anymore.
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  2. #32
    Site Supporter farscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caballoflaco View Post
    One thing to remember is just because there is a STANAG number for 5.7 it doesn’t mean anybody is going to adopt it. The CZ P01 has a STANAG number as well and I don’t think the Czechs even issue it anymore.
    Which makes me ask, "Who benefits?" Someone decided that a STANAG number was needed and pushed the NATO bureaucracy to make it happen. FN is responsible for the press release, so what does FN gain? Any non-military agencies look favorably upon a STANAG number as meaningful? Will we be seeing a new series of 5.7 firearms from FN now that Ruger has popularized the round?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by farscott View Post
    Which makes me ask, "Who benefits?" Someone decided that a STANAG number was needed and pushed the NATO bureaucracy to make it happen. FN is responsible for the press release, so what does FN gain? Any non-military agencies look favorably upon a STANAG number as meaningful? Will we be seeing a new series of 5.7 firearms from FN now that Ruger has popularized the round?
    Maybe FN is just trying to revitalize a dying product line.

    I wonder if all it takes to get a STANAG number is just paying NATO and passing a few tests, like if you want to legitimize a cartridge on the commercial market you have to pay SAAMI.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caballoflaco View Post
    Maybe FN is just trying to revitalize a dying product line.
    All previous jokes aside, on a serious note I think this is just a continued sign that Europe is approaching Russia as a reemerged threat.

    While reliable, serviceable, affordable shorty 5.56 carbines are a reality compared to 1986 when NATO released the PDW tender which spawned the 5.7 FN and 4.6 HK, many European militaries would still prefer to have that option available to issue en masse to support troops.

    And, regardless of whether or not anyone here thinks its a good idea, it is something that wouldn't occur if they didn't regard Russia as a renewed conventional threat.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    All previous jokes aside, on a serious note I think this is just a continued sign that Europe is approaching Russia as a reemerged threat.

    While reliable, serviceable, affordable shorty 5.56 carbines are a reality compared to 1986 when NATO released the PDW tender which spawned the 5.7 FN and 4.6 HK, many European militaries would still prefer to have that option available to issue en masse to support troops.

    And, regardless of whether or not anyone here thinks its a good idea, it is something that wouldn't occur if they didn't regard Russia as a renewed conventional threat.
    So I did some looking on the web and there is also a STANAG (4820) for 4.6x30. I guess HK just didn’t do a press release because they hate us and won’t sell mp7’s on the civilian market. (Or maybe I just missed it)

    ETA: but it looks like there’s still no one standard caliber for pdws
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  6. #36
    Last time I took a rifle company to Norway all of our reservist Norwegian Army BV206 drivers were armed with MP7a1s.... so TGS asserting that these are still very popular in European militaries for arming support guys absolutely holds true. Honestly I'd rather arm many of my close support guys such as mortar gunners, rocket gunners,, machine gunners, corpsmen, radio operators, driver's...with something like a P90 or MP7 than a pistol as well...Currently many of these guys are given a M4, though in the past they would have rated a pistol instead. But, with us going IAR pure in the USMC infantry world we are almost back to the same incuberance as the M16 was size wise, and that's before we think about the new SCO , PEQ, lights, and suppressor we are going to issue with them as well... Carrying a fully equipped IAR and the primary tools of your job is a unneeded pain since all these guys only use a personal weapon for close self defense as they man other stuff on the battlefield and hits are way easier out to 100 meters or so with subgun type things than hits to 25 meters are with pistols as most of us here would know....
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  7. #37
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MandoWookie View Post
    Of course in the days of your before even Cooper, soldiers marched across the West wielding guns firing cartridges that could ground an elephant if properly placed, but bureaucrats did not fear these arms , by the simple expedient that they refused to actually supply them.
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  8. #38
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caballoflaco View Post
    One thing to remember is just because there is a STANAG number for 5.7 it doesn’t mean anybody is going to adopt it. The CZ P01 has a STANAG number as well and I don’t think the Czechs even issue it anymore.
    Semantic: STANAG is the STANdardization AGreement for NATO countries. A STANAG number would refer to a specific agreement, which outlines the evaluation, performance, etc of a given object. A NSN - NATO Stock Number, would be assigned to a specific model that meets its respective STANAGs.

    For instance the CZ P-01 carries a NATO Stock Number which means it fulfills the STANAG for 9mm pistols.

    The STANAG for 5.7 just means that NATO has officially outlined performance metrics for manufacturers to reach in order to get NSNs.

    I'm reading that apparently this whole STANAG was pushed/sponsored by the Belgians...I wonder who greased their palms?

    Makes sense to me.

    CZ buys Colt/Colt Canada. They'll inevitably win the Canadian .MIL pistol contract (I know the draft call basically asks for a Sig P320, but I suspect we'll see some "changes" between draft and final form to favor the P10). FN sees the writing on the wall - they may have the US M16/M4/M4A1 contract for now - beating Colt, a dead horse, was one thing, beating CZ an Eastern Euro juggernaut is another. What better way to hedge your military bets than getting a 5.7mm STANAG, remembering you're the sole damn maker of military grade weapons in that caliber. Now you can sell a package, "Our ARs and PDWs are better than CZ/Colt"

    Because mark my words if another PDW call gets dropped the Evo Scorpion will at the front.

  9. #39
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    @RevolverRob

    Unfortunately the CZ Scorpion doesn't meet the parameters of a NATO PDW....small caliber, high velocity SMG sized gun that can penetrate body armor at extended ranges well beyond what 9mm AP is capable of. The Scorpion, obviously, is just a blowback SMG and is incapable of firing these cartridges, and fulfilling this role.
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  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by rcbusmc24 View Post
    Last time I took a rifle company to Norway all of our reservist Norwegian Army BV206 drivers were armed with MP7a1s.... so TGS asserting that these are still very popular in European militaries for arming support guys absolutely holds true. Honestly I'd rather arm many of my close support guys such as mortar gunners, rocket gunners,, machine gunners, corpsmen, radio operators, driver's...with something like a P90 or MP7 than a pistol as well...Currently many of these guys are given a M4, though in the past they would have rated a pistol instead. But, with us going IAR pure in the USMC infantry world we are almost back to the same incuberance as the M16 was size wise, and that's before we think about the new SCO , PEQ, lights, and suppressor we are going to issue with them as well... Carrying a fully equipped IAR and the primary tools of your job is a unneeded pain since all these guys only use a personal weapon for close self defense as they man other stuff on the battlefield and hits are way easier out to 100 meters or so with subgun type things than hits to 25 meters are with pistols as most of us here would know....
    Another advantage of the PDW is the possibilities it opens up at the squad/platoon level for the Grenadier.

    Rather then carrying an M4/M27 + M320 Stand alone single shot grenade launcher, you could have a Grenadier with a holsterable PDW, and use the weight savings to allow them to carry a Milkor multi shot firing medium velocity 40x51mm Air Bursting grenades.

    Current Marines Grenadier:

    M27= 8lbs
    ACOG 3x35 + rmr = 1lb
    Harris bipod = 0.875lbs
    VFG = 0.1875
    PEQ 16 = 0.619lbs
    =10.68lbs

    7x PMAGS = 7.77lbs

    HK M320 irons = 4.8lbs
    24x 40x46 grenades = 12.62lbs

    Total = 35.87lbs

    PDW Grenadier

    B&T MP9 5.7x28 w/ Aimpoint = 3.5lbs
    20rd 5.7 mag = 0.57lb
    30rd 5.7 mag x4 = 3.24lbs
    --> MP9 5.7 w/ 140rds = 7.31lbs

    Milkor 40mm w/ FN FCU = 16.14lbs
    24 40x51 MV Air Burst = 15.84lbs
    Total = 31.62lbs

    PDW Grendier w/ 5.7 PDW + Milkor = 38.93lbs (only +3lbs vs regular grenadier)

    The 40x51 doubles the range from 400m to 800m while also increasing HE shell weight from 185g to 240g, and the fire control unit adds accuracy, and the air burst adds the ability to hit targets behind cover. Basically a off the shelf XM25 with a much bigger punch, and a substantial increase in potential squad lethality vs the current single shot 40x46mm grenade launcher.

    A 5.7 PDW would make that possible, whereas forcing the 'Milkor Man' to also carry a full size assault rifle and ammo would make the weight unsustainable.

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