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Thread: NATO Standardizes FN's 5.7x28mm Caliber

  1. #81
    Member Wake27's Avatar
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    NATO Standardizes FN's 5.7x28mm Caliber

    I’d agree on the points above about having to sling, which brings around my original thought - might as well have a MK18 (especially if it has an MLOK rail). Granted the size difference between an MP7 and MK18 is significant, but there’s a whole lot of other considerations to be made here when start talking logistics. Honestly, I’m still kind of surprised that anyone outside of JSOC and a small element of USASOC even considers PDWs.


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  2. #82
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    Thanks for entertaining my questions!

    I can see what you guys are saying about a pistol like holster not really working for an MP7.

    I think it would be *better* if that holster were a bit higher on the hip in TGS’ photo similarly to the TP9. But it’s still too big to carry on body like that.

    But candidly, it seems like an M9 (or P320) in a shoulder holster or even thigh holster and a compartmentalized PDW like TGS cited would be best. Though if it’s in a compartment maybe a Mk18 would be feasible.

    Interesting to think about. I think a rifle’s definitely superior. But, tanks, helicopters, etc. are the fighting vehicle. A PDW is a break in case of emergency situation. I think rifles would probably be a requirement for folks in non-fighting vehicles like a supply truck or medical vehicle. Because at that point it’s not supplementing any weapons system - it is the only weapons system - from my civilian perspective.

    I will say I know lots of folks are leery (justifiably) of bull pups and the proximity of the chamber/bolt to the shooters face. But, the P90 being basically a .22 WMR equivalent ballistically it seems if it did Kaboom it would be less dangerous to the operator as well given it’s lower chamber pressures to a 5.56mm.

    It seems the P90 is better than the MP7 from what I’m reading here.

    At this point this is a fun thing to think about and if I’m detracting from the dialogue - I’ll stop.

    ETA: Above, when I say “best” I’m referring to having a weapon on each crew member - given the PDW’s may be out of reach, destroyed, or on a vehicle that may be inaccessible to the crew. I’m way out of my league here though - typing this edit I’m like “How did I get myself here...”.
    Last edited by BWT; 03-16-2021 at 09:39 AM.
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  3. #83
    Discussions and what is can be fun, and are how we learn about things that might not be our everyday world. The best fighting combo is a rifle and a back up pistol, that is not in any doubt. But in the .mil those who are dual issued have a real tendency to leave that long gun in the rack or on the vic if they have a pistol when out " doing stuff"... I will admit I've done this myself, My rifle lived on the rack right next to Master Guns and the Col's when I was the watch chief for 1 MEF Fwd in RC/ SW on Leatherneck in 2012. I'd walk or drive around with my M9 in a kydex belt holster all over Leatherneck, Shorbak and Bastion. The night that the airfield got attacked I was in the COC as the WC but all the other dudes running in from various parts of the camp would have much rather had something more substantial that a pistol with them just then. That is what a PDW is for, because while a rifle is better, and a MK 18 is great, if shit gets to a certain size it's gonna get racked vice carried. That's why I think the p90 and mp7 are right at that cusp size wise. Logistically mk18s are the easy button answer.

    If I had my way, we would be buying LMT MRPs with MLOK uppers and swapping barrel sizes as needed, but no body will let me be in charge....
    "So strong is this propensity of mankind, to fall into mutual animosities, that where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions, and excite their most violent conflicts." - James Madison, Federalist No 10

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by rcbusmc24 View Post
    Either one would need to be slung. Holsters big enough to fit a MP7 don't fit in .mil equipment. Having shot both I think that I would prefer to have a P90 over the MP7, and that does have to do with mag capacity some as both designs are intended to be used to squirt bursts of bullets at targets. However, either would be preferable to being on the field with only a handgun for self defense. In no way would I advocate one as a replacement for a rifle, except as I have previously mentioned before.
    I agree - I'd choose the P90 over the MP-7 as it feels less awkward to wear and 50rd mags are great.

    Still, even if using a PDW in its original purpose (replacing pistols for REMF's and armor/air crew), the military as a whole still sells them all short. Whether we issue a pistol or PDW, the amount and quality of weapons training is unlikely to change. It will always be inadequate for anyone outside SOF or combat arms units. That of course is one of the reasons for the PDW - increased hit potential with a shouldered weapon and ideally an optic on it. That's another way the P90 would beat the MP-7 in my book for general issue. The P90 doesn't require the soldier to extend the stock.

    One last concern I'd have with PDW's is the increase in muzzling of the soldier and anyone around. Short weapons on slings make that so much easier to do, and a negligent discharge will be less forgiving than a 9mm ball round (but the pistol will typically be holstered). There is no perfect solution, especially when the military won't invest in training. Hell, does the big Army still shoot M4's and M9's until something breaks? Then replace the broken piece with a used piece of unknown round count from another weapon? They won't invest in training, or preventive maintenance... maybe it doesn't matter what we give them because we aren't setting them up for success anyway.

  5. #85
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BWT View Post
    I will say I know lots of folks are leery (justifiably) of bull pups and the proximity of the chamber/bolt to the shooters face. But, the P90 being basically a .22 WMR equivalent ballistically it seems if it did Kaboom it would be less dangerous to the operator as well given it’s lower chamber pressures to a 5.56mm.
    Well, maybe a little but not quite. It's something that gets repeated a lot, but the person who originally said such a thing didn't look at the chamber pressures and barrel lengths.

    In a 24" barrel, 22WMR in a 30gr load is going the same speed as a 31gr 5.7 out of the 10" P90. So, it's a disingenuous comparison.

    Out of a pistol, the 5.7 is 700-1000fps faster than the 22WMR, depending on load.

    As for chamber pressures, the 5.7 is ~50k psi.....the 22WMR is ~24k.

    Quote Originally Posted by BWT View Post
    It seems the P90 is better than the MP7 from what I’m reading here.
    In addition to what has already mentioned, I think one of the advantages of the P90 is that it's crazy simple. Takedown is comically simple, possible the best takedown of any service weapon in the history of mankind. Another thing, earlier in the thread I told @RevolverRob that the Scorpion EVO likely wouldn't be a PDW contender because it's blowback....but it turns out the P90 is blowback as well! I always thought it was lever delayed for some reason.....but nope, apparently it's straight blowback and I'm left wondering how such a high pressure cartridge functions so well with a blowback system.

    So, the advantage here is that maintenance is a breeze and mostly end-user serviceable. The HK MP7 however is not....its gas piston is only serviceable by armorers, and must be serviced every ~800 rounds. James from Teufelshund Tactical is a retired MARSOC Marine with working experience on the MP7, current HK armorer, and admitted fanboy (to the MP7 in particular) and even he admits this is an extra consideration that is going to be a problem for a lot of outfits that don't have the dedicated HK MP7 armorer support. There's a federal agency that used MP7s for the PSDs up until this year and ditched them for SIG MPXs, as they were having trouble with their reliability using the 40 round mags. I'm just guessing, but I'd wager there was incomplete maintenance involved which the longer magazine springs (and that typically means weaker) couldn't keep up with whatever was happening to the gas system. While still needing similarly frequent cleaning of the gas piston, that process is end-user serviceable on the MPX.

    Conjecture on my part regarding the basis of their issues, just an educated guess given that James stated gas piston cleaning is the most common culprit with customers guns that are having problems.....but, regardless, the P90 is still stupid simple and doesn't need that sort of care to begin with.
    Last edited by TGS; 03-16-2021 at 01:37 PM.
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  6. #86
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    @TGS I don’t have time to find a link right now, but the P90 isn’t pure blowback. It’s close; but the barrel does move rearward a short (really short) distance before the bolt moves out of battery after firing. It might best be described a recoil-delayed blowback.
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  7. #87
    Member Wake27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
    Hell, does the big Army still shoot M4's and M9's until something breaks?
    Pretty much.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
    Then replace the broken piece with a used piece of unknown round count from another weapon?
    I have not heard of that.


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  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Borderland View Post
    I think Ruger has a model 57 that uses that cartridge. I wonder if this will replace the 9mm as the NATO pistol cartridge. Did the Army buy a new pistol too soon?
    I'm guessing that Ruger knew something about this coming up.

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