AIWB now legal in all divisions?

[JCN]

That aspect of it is arguably a good thing, and maybe if they hadn't changed production's weight rules so grossly, it might have been sane-ish. Manufacturer stated weight + 2 ounces as a max was problematic because manufacturer stated weights were often off by significant amounts. (I happen to have personal experience of a completely stock gun weighing in at 2.1 ounces more than its listed weight on the Production list at the time - thankfully the rangemaster decided that it wasn't a competitive advantage and opted not to bump me to Open.) 59 ounces is absurd, though, and the flashlight rule just provides a way to get closer to that weight.

That's part of what they said the rules changes were for: to prevent overzealous rules lawyering ROs from bumping people for improper use of magnets, holsters 1" too far from the nebulous hip bone, etc.

I definitely think nit picky ROs beating on noobs for non-safety things leaves bad tastes in people's mouths and can kill the enthusiasm of the new people.

I think in practicality with gamer 9mm ammo, 35-45 ounces is a sweet spot for me in a Production / CO gun. With hotter ammo, heavier guns become more important.

I tried it with a 9oz "flashlight" added to get up to max weight and while it helped some things (recoil management), it hurt draws, transitions and reloads having the weight on the nose.

The gain I got in recoil management wasn't worth the trade off.

So I think it's much ado about nothing.

I don't. I EDC a ~200 lumen light clipped to my pocket, and that's good enough for me. No doubt I will be killed in the streets tomorrow.

I don't EDC a WML, but I do have one on my nightstand gun. I think it's a good idea in a home defense weapon. In an intruder situation, I would rather have one and I think it's cheap insurance.

Nothing I said should be taken to mean that I think it's impossible to make it to high levels of the sport with a stock plastic gun and a lot of dedication, but it's inarguably EASIER with one of the super heavy Production "race" guns, and the light/frame weight thing is at least in part another path toward that same end.

To get to A level, you really don't need anything fancy. Not even that much "hard work." We're talking about 20 minutes a day of intelligent dry fire.

Fancy guns not necessary at that level. A fancy gun only gets you about ~2-4% in my back to back testing. To get 75% (and definitely 60%) there's a ton of low hanging fruit out there BESIDES equipment.

Good job, and I'm sincerely glad that it worked out well for you. Not everyone can find a used S2 for that price (or can be confident the prior owner(s) didn't do something to irreparably screw it up). Not everyone is skilled in gunsmithing or willing to risk Dremeling on their own S2.

New S2s before the pandemic were only ~$1100 online if you didn't care about the color.

I left my gun completely stock except for $30 of springs until I made "A" classification, then I went a little more gamey because I knew what I liked and where I felt like things could be improved.

For an S2, it's changing a hammer spring, recoil spring and firing pin spring. That's pretty much it and you're almost all the way there.

Anyone using equipment as an excuse under an "A" level just doesn't want to put in the work.

And that's okay. The sport depends on making D/C/B level competitors feel good and enjoy themselves.

But honestly, if someone told me I had to run a stock Glock with a flashlight at a match I wouldn't feel too badly compared to my gamer setup.

[Clusterfrack]

...prevent overzealous rules lawyering ROs ... nit picky ROs beating on noobs for non-safety things leaves bad tastes in people's mouths and can kill the enthusiasm of the new people.

... tried it with a 9oz "flashlight" added to get up to max weight ...wasn't worth the trade off....So I think it's much ado about nothing.
...To get to A level, you really don't need anything fancy. Not even that much "hard work."
...Anyone using equipment as an excuse under an "A" level just doesn't want to put in the work.
....The sport depends on making D/C/B level competitors feel good and enjoy themselves.
...run a stock Glock with a flashlight at a match I wouldn't feel too badly compared to my gamer setup.

Great post @JCN. I agree with pretty much all of this. A few thoughts:

I’d like NROI to put more effort into training ROs, and eliminating the bad ones.

Making B class in USPSA is a significant achievement, and anyone who’s done that should feel proud of their shooting ability. Getting out of B class is the next hardest thing to making GM—practically every classifier counts. A is the BJJ purple belt of shooting. To be competitive at the A level does require a lot of work and focus, but I agree that equipment is largely irrelevant -at least in Production.

Matches should be fun and challenging for everyone, but USPSA is a sport first and foremost. There’s a level of professionalism that I expect from our leadership, and that’s been lacking lately.

[bofe954]

@JCN

I started USPSA with a G17 and uncle mike's gear. I bought 100rd 9mm white box at walmart. The match fee at the range I rented lanes at was cheaper than renting a lane, so I gave it a try.

If you stood me next to David Sevigny, who was dominating at the time, the differences in our equipment was subtle. Early on nationals winners shot stuff that you would find in a cop's holster. P226, Beretta 92F, G34 were primo competition guns, and this is like 2000-2010. I think Leatham even won with an XD.

To me the difference now would be huge. So I don't understand how the rules have made it more beginner friendly. I don't get why a beginner would even own a belt mounted magnet for an RO to complain about.

To me they could've put the weight limit at about Shadow I level or even CZ 85 combat (also a hot production gun of it's day) level and we'd all be shooting somewhat realistic carry guns in production.

Single stack and production were intended to be "concealed carry" divisions. With the popularity of AIWB I could see adding it to those divisions. I think there may be a speed advantage to the more forward position of the holster, and if you want to deal with an IWB holster vs behind your hip, whatever. I don't really care about the flashlight either until the darkhouse shows and I'm stuck trying to do reloads with a flashlight some RO just handed me, and it will happen.

I have largely shot production and SS because I don't like fiddling with equipment.

After awhile shooting USPSA has started to feel like an agreement to buy whatever they've changed the rules to this year.

Guys that used to dust off their 625 and shoot revo a few times a year... Guess what, now you need an 8 shot, oh and by the way S+W just happens to be making a 9mm 8 shot miculek edition this year...

CZ just started sponsoring nationals, and by the way we're raising the weight limits on all the divisions...

[JCN]

Guys that used to dust off their 625 and shoot revo a few times a year... Guess what, now you need an 8 shot, oh and by the way S+W just happens to be making a 9mm 8 shot miculek edition this year...

CZ just started sponsoring nationals, and by the way we're raising the weight limits on all the divisions...

I think you’d fit in great with IDPA! How’s their business model going?

To keep the sport healthy, you need young blood and cool toys.

[JCN]

@bofe954

Funny you should mention 625s and 929s.

These are my 625 reloads:


And my 8 shot reloads for 929 practice:


I’m in the sport because the competition is stiff.

As long as the competition is there, I’ll take all the warts that come with it.

[bofe954]

I think you’d fit in great with IDPA! How’s their business model going?

To keep the sport healthy, you need young blood and cool toys.

You may have a point about me and IDPA, I'm not sure...I was half expecting the "onion on my belt" Simpsons reply from someone after that post, and maybe it's still coming.

As for health of the sport, what it needs might be regional. Around here matches fill up, so some of the young bloods can't shoot their cool toys anyway. Clubs are reducing the number of matches they run and one is gone because no one wants to do the work to put a match on.

I think the sport would grow more if USPSA would put effort in to supporting the guys running matches and helping create new ones and less into finding new sponsors. It may be different where you are.

[Bucky]

@JCN
Single stack and production were intended to be "concealed carry" divisions. With the popularity of AIWB I could see adding it to those divisions. I think there may be a speed advantage to the more forward position of the holster, and if you want to deal with an IWB holster vs behind your hip, whatever. I don't really care about the flashlight either until the darkhouse shows and I'm stuck trying to do reloads with a flashlight some RO just handed me, and it will happen.

I’m not sure production was ever meant to be a concealed carry division per say, but more a place for lesser cost / common guns to play. Single stack may have been meant as a more CC concept (considering the holster requirements), but wasn’t originally USPSAs idea. It was started by another organization.

[YVK]

A timmy who shot CO with a G17 with SRO and TLR out of AIWB took the first overall in a local match yesterday.


He also won the previous match shooting his 60 Oz STI in Limited.

Skillz > everything?

[cheby]

A timmy who shot CO with a G17 with SRO and TLR out of AIWB took the first overall in a local match yesterday.


He also won the previous match shooting his 60 Oz STI in Limited.

Skillz > everything?

Yeah, let's just get rid of the divisions and start looking for overall winners.

[Elwin]

Yeah, let's just get rid of the divisions and start looking for overall winners.

That was very much not the point of YVK’s post, and if you were taking what others say in context instead of looking to argue you would’ve noticed that.