AIWB now legal in all divisions?

[bofe954]

That might be the case in your region, but in our area there are a number of new and established guys running flashlights now. They're not new shooters, but they're new to USPSA and enjoying it.

So at least over here, it's been a net positive without any negative. All our M/GM CO are not running lights except when I tried it out and I'm doing better for more dry fire practice then messing with a light.

If your region had no negative and mine had net positive... then maybe across the nation it's a net positive.... Maybe.

.

Or maybe the new guys would just take their flashlights off for the match...

Oh that's right, all these new guys that just started USPSA carry their pistols with lights mounted, AND it's the only gun they own, AND only holster they own, AND the only thing that ever held them back from shooting USPSA was the fact they carry fullsize guns with flashlights AIWB AND refuse to shoot open because they would not be competitive in their first match...I keep forgetting.

[JCN]

Or maybe the new guys would just take their flashlights off for the match...

Oh that's right, all these new guys that just started USPSA carry their pistols with lights mounted, AND it's the only gun they own, AND only holster they own, AND the only thing that ever held them back from shooting USPSA was the fact they carry fullsize guns with flashlights AIWB AND refuse to shoot open because they would not be competitive in their first match...I keep forgetting.

Like I said, there are egos and irrational feelings all around. I didn’t say any of it had to make sense, but people have egos on both sides and sometimes doing something that caters to egos is that last barrier that breaks through.

The stodgy attitudes of IDPA folks are why I never competed there. They can talk about me getting kilt on the street all they want, but with their 2 second draws from fishing vests, I don’t think the reality of their lack of skills really hits them.

[cheby]

Like I said, there are egos and irrational feelings all around. I didn’t say any of it had to make sense, but people have egos on both sides and sometimes doing something that caters to egos is that last barrier that breaks through.

The stodgy attitudes of IDPA folks are why I never competed there. They can talk about me getting kilt on the street all they want, but with their 2 second draws from fishing vests, I don’t think the reality of their lack of skills really hits them.

IDPA could be a good sport but constant fuckery with rules to accommodate clueless crowd made it a joke. They focus on irrelevant crap instead of what really matters. All because people who run it have different perception of "need" as you pointed out

[Clusterfrack]

That might be the case in your region, but in our area there are a number of new and established guys running flashlights now. They're not new shooters, but they're new to USPSA and enjoying it.

So at least over here, it's been a net positive without any negative. All our M/GM CO are not running lights except when I tried it out and I'm doing better for more dry fire practice then messing with a light.

If your region had no negative and mine had net positive... then maybe across the nation it's a net positive.... Maybe.




But that's sez you. Others may see it differently and might think rules should be there to foster growth of the sport at all levels rather than focus on the quality at the top levels. And the organization won't be solvent without health at the lowest grassroots levels. For every one @Clusterfrack , there are probably 50 B/C guys that have 1.4 second draws and 0.25 splits on close open targets that rules stability doesn't matter at all to.

The average person out there isn't emotionally or intellectually honest with themselves and a sport is often an escape from having to take hard looks at themselves and put in the work.

The PF person and the M/GMs out there are the exceptions rather than the rules for most grassroots organizations and unless you have some mechanism where people can keep deluding themselves to feel good, it actually does hurt the overall health of the organization.

IMO.

I think you misunderstood me. I wasn’t saying that rules should only benefit high level shooters.

Good rules promote competition at all levels. Changing rules in itself is disruptive, and shouldn’t happen without a deliberate careful process. That is what bothers me the most about the flashlight rule. It wasn’t done thoughtfully, and I’m left wondering “what’s next?”

[JCN]

I think you misunderstood me. I wasn’t saying that rules should only benefit high level shooters.

Good rules promote competition at all levels. Changing rules in itself is disruptive, and shouldn’t happen without a deliberate careful process. That is what bothers me the most about the flashlight rule. It wasn’t done thoughtfully, and I’m left wondering “what’s next?”

I think there’s a lot of assumption there that doesn’t necessarily hold.

Do good rules promote competition at all levels?
Or does it really only matter at the mid to high levels?

Poor and recreational shooters will be underprepared skill wise and won’t really matter what ruleset they compete under. But their ego is disproportionately represented so for them “bad” rules that cater to their ego may promote competition for that type of shooter rather than “good” rules.

Changing rules is really only disruptive to mid to upper competitive shooters, IMO.

It wasn’t done thoughtfully with regard to the carnage it caused to the upper level, but it didn’t even register on the radar to most poorer shooters who thought “oh cool.”

So in essence, you’re taking it from the perspective of a high level shooter. Most lower level don’t care about the lack of thought of the rules as long as they have more freedom and it helps their egos.

Just like most people only care about the taxes they pay....

[olstyn]

Changing rules is really only disruptive to mid to upper competitive shooters, IMO.

It wasn’t done thoughtfully with regard to the carnage it caused to the upper level, but it didn’t even register on the radar to most poorer shooters who thought “oh cool.”

I've just missed making it into B class a few times, so very definitely low to mid level at best, and I thought "oh cool" about the holster position stuff, but "WTF, that's really dumb" about the flashlight rules. IMO the flashlight stuff just plays into the already dumb weight limit in Production and makes it into even more of an equipment race, which for a division that serves as an entry point to the sport for a lot of people in addition to being a high level competitive division is, in my view at least, poor management. There was enough weird dichotomy as it was with some people competing with stock (or nearly so) Glocks and others investing thousands of dollars into Shadow 2s with custom work. Raising the weight limit to "this is almost as heavy as an Open gun" and allowing flashlights just widens those gaps, which arguably makes it harder to transition from "I suck" to "I'm decently competitive" or better, because not only do you have a significant skill gap to overcome through training, if you start out with a stock Glock, you have to invest significant money to close the equipment gap as well.

[Clusterfrack]

@JCN, I understand your points, and you make good arguments. I still don’t agree.

Think about a sport like baseball. Little League and MLB both benefit from stable, sensible rules. If baseball changed rules multiple times a year, with no notice or process, it would cheapen the sport for everyone.

[JCN]

I've just missed making it into B class a few times, so very definitely low to mid level at best, and I thought "oh cool" about the holster position stuff, but "WTF, that's really dumb" about the flashlight rules. IMO the flashlight stuff just plays into the already dumb weight limit in Production and makes it into even more of an equipment race, which for a division that serves as an entry point to the sport for a lot of people in addition to being a high level competitive division is, in my view at least, poor management. There was enough weird dichotomy as it was with some people competing with stock (or nearly so) Glocks and others investing thousands of dollars into Shadow 2s with custom work. Raising the weight limit to "this is almost as heavy as an Open gun" and allowing flashlights just widens those gaps, which arguably makes it harder to transition from "I suck" to "I'm decently competitive" or better, because not only do you have a significant skill gap to overcome through training, if you start out with a stock Glock, you have to invest significant money to close the equipment gap as well.

But the flip side is also true. You have people with stock Glocks who already own flashlights who think "oh cool, now I can be more competitive with the stuff I already own."

What self-respecting PF member doesn't own a WML?

My buddy made Master in production shooting a stock Glock in the first year of competition by dry firing a lot. Didn't cost him anything.
This was AFTER the adjust HHFs.

Anything that makes the HHFs easier to get goes towards that now. I'm definitely working to capitalize on the front mag placement for the stand and shoot classifiers.

My Shadow 2 smithing I did all myself with YouTube videos and off the shelf parts. I think I bought a used S2 for ~$900 and a few Cajun and stock CZ parts plus a Dremel. That's really it.

[JCN]

@JCN, I understand your points, and you make good arguments. I still don’t agree.

Think about a sport like baseball. Little League and MLB both benefit from stable, sensible rules. If baseball changed rules multiple times a year, with no notice or process, it would cheapen the sport for everyone.

I think that's not a good analogy because you have really competitive people in Little League and not really any casual MLB players. You're also not depending on Little League to fund MLB games.

This is more like disc golf (I think).

Something that nationwide is funded by the recreational shooter participation in the organization, doesn't pay any salaries at the top level, is a niche sport and depends on the grassroots participation to keep the sport alive.

The only directive is to keep the organization alive and healthy and if during a pandemic they have to mess around with all kinds of things and screw with stability, like change the timing of Nationals and cancel and reschedule multiple events, they'll do it in the name of the organization perhaps.

Like @RevolverRob said, really the closest thing to USPSA is SCCA (sports car club of america) that depends on a similar structure of local event dues and participation to fund the large events and organizational structure. And has noobs and top level talent competing side by side in a sport that nobody really cares about outside of the participants.

[olstyn]

But the flip side is also true. You have people with stock Glocks who already own flashlights who think "oh cool, now I can be more competitive with the stuff I already own."

That aspect of it is arguably a good thing, and maybe if they hadn't changed production's weight rules so grossly, it might have been sane-ish. Manufacturer stated weight + 2 ounces as a max was problematic because manufacturer stated weights were often off by significant amounts. (I happen to have personal experience of a completely stock gun weighing in at 2.1 ounces more than its listed weight on the Production list at the time - thankfully the rangemaster decided that it wasn't a competitive advantage and opted not to bump me to Open.) 59 ounces is absurd, though, and the flashlight rule just provides a way to get closer to that weight.

What self-respecting PF member doesn't own a WML?

I don't. I EDC a ~200 lumen light clipped to my pocket, and that's good enough for me. No doubt I will be killed in the streets tomorrow.

My buddy made Master in production shooting a stock Glock in the first year of competition by dry firing a lot. Didn't cost him anything.
This was AFTER the adjust HHFs.

Nothing I said should be taken to mean that I think it's impossible to make it to high levels of the sport with a stock plastic gun and a lot of dedication, but it's inarguably EASIER with one of the super heavy Production "race" guns, and the light/frame weight thing is at least in part another path toward that same end.

My Shadow 2 smithing I did all myself with YouTube videos and off the shelf parts. I think I bought a used S2 for ~$900 and a few Cajun and stock CZ parts plus a Dremel. That's really it.

Good job, and I'm sincerely glad that it worked out well for you. Not everyone can find a used S2 for that price (or can be confident the prior owner(s) didn't do something to irreparably screw it up). Not everyone is skilled in gunsmithing or willing to risk Dremeling on their own S2.