AIWB now legal in all divisions?

[JCN]

Here's the post from Brian enos that I think is on point:

"If we take a step back from it, and just look at what we're now calling production guns. I think our equipment has become a joke over the last few years. And what concerns me more is that if the trend continues we'll likely see another major equipment change in the next 6-12 months.

Our sport is a meme at this point "

Brian Enos current opinion on the sport is akin to Ken Hackathorne’s... of historical interest but not applicable as they don’t regularly and actively compete.

At least as far as I’ve seen, the sport is healthy in attendance and population.

Evolve or die. If the organization is healthy enough, I don’t really care what the particular rules are.

I see enough young and enthusiastic people entering the sport every year that I’m not concerned about the future of the sport. Unlike IDPA or bowling pin leagues that the average age of competitor would qualify them for reduced cost breakfast at Denny’s.

Is the parent org healthy? Check.
Are there fun people at matches. Check.
Do I have fun at matches. Check.
Do I care about changing rules? Nope, as long as they apply to everyone.

[RevolverRob]

So, I've been around a few organizations like USPSA a few times in my life. They start out as break away from other orgs, because the other orgs got too serious/lost focus.

Things go along well for a bit and turnover in leadership results in a short institutional memory. People lose focus and without an explicit core mission statement and good steerage the orgs ultimately become a shadow of themselves. It usually happens like this:

First it's a group of hobbyists, some sort of serious.

Then, there becomes a bifurcation in the membership, where one side is made up of professionals who do the activity, but are not professionals at running the org.

Then, to keep ego in check, the not-so-serious side that runs the org gives in to some of the demands of the pro side.

Then, the pro side get into an ego race with each other and eventually decide they can do it all better.

Then, shit gets meme-weird with people basically playing fast and loose, because ego and professional stakes.

Then, the folks who really don't like the pro folks and their egos, break away and form a new group.

--

To be honest, the only organization I've seen successfully bridge between novices and professionals are groups like the NHRA and SCCA. It doesn't happen in other sports, because professionals or semi-pro hobbyists make the sport NOT fun.

If I have to compete against Mario Andretti every Saturday on the track, I'll probably stay home. Getting my ass kicked for educational purposes is fine, but if I compete I want to win. Humans naturally do. Anything that makes it harder to compete and win, makes it harder for people to be interested. Why did PCC take off? A rifle + a couple of mags was all you needed to have fun and compete. Now that the pros have caught up, where is PCC at? Starting to drop off.

Returning back to flashlights. I just look at the fact that someone want(s) a 7-ounce brass "light" hanging off their gun as a sign that I'm not emotionally invested enough in shooting this sport to put that much energy in. I don't get nearly enough enjoyment back out of it. Importantly, this means I'll let my USPSA membership lapse. Because it's not worth it to me, given the absurdity of what is going on.

[cheby]

Brian Enos current opinion on the sport is akin to Ken Hackathorne’s... of historical interest but not applicable as they don’t regularly and actively compete.

At least as far as I’ve seen, the sport is healthy in attendance and population.

Evolve or die. If the organization is healthy enough, I don’t really care what the particular rules are.

I see enough young and enthusiastic people entering the sport every year that I’m not concerned about the future of the sport. Unlike IDPA or bowling pin leagues that the average age of competitor would qualify them for reduced cost breakfast at Denny’s.

Is the parent org healthy? Check.
Are there fun people at matches. Check.
Do I have fun at matches. Check.
Do I care about changing rules? Nope, as long as they apply to everyone.

What are you even talking about? USPSA is a healthy SPORT and competition oriented growing organization.
We need to build competitive equity emphasizing on skill development. Nothing is/was dying. You kill the competition when you start messing with rules to give out participation trophies. More people shooting beer cans in the woods don't develop anything.

[Eyesquared]

I'm obviously not RevolverRob, but I am pretty sure he was joking and/or trolling with that one, and it appears that he got you.

OTOH, if you can't look at the situation with the flashlight rule and see that it's pretty silly on the face of it and therefore deserving of mockery, then I have to agree with JCN that you're taking it too seriously/wound too tight. Relax, you'll feel better.

I'm just gonna quote myself because I feel like I already responded to this before:

Anyways my point is that memes like that are just intellectual dishonesty. I overstated it when I said it makes me mad. What actually does make me mad is spending too much time arguing back and forth with someone online only to realize they aren't really considering what I'm trying to say. Hence my post. No emotions towards anyone posting that meme but the meme just reminds me of the worst kinds of posters on social media.

[Eyesquared]

Returning back to flashlights. I just look at the fact that someone want(s) a 7-ounce brass "light" hanging off their gun as a sign that I'm not emotionally invested enough in shooting this sport to put that much energy in. I don't get nearly enough enjoyment back out of it. Importantly, this means I'll let my USPSA membership lapse. Because it's not worth it to me, given the absurdity of what is going on.

I find that interesting because the common line of reasoning is that less restrictive rules means more shooters. But in reality letting people shoot whatever they want turns some people off.

[JCN]

What are you even talking about? USPSA is a healthy SPORT and competition oriented growing organization.
We need to build competitive equity emphasizing on skill development. Nothing is/was dying. You kill the competition when you start messing with rules to give out participation trophies. More people shooting beer cans in the woods don't develop anything.

Dunno man. Your idea of “need” is your opinion and not really a “need” at all.

Some people like to tinker and changing equipment is part of their hobby.
The number of actual skill developing competitors at a local match is pretty small.

How many career C shooters are there out having fun? Their vote and opinion counts as much as someone at the highest level. And guess what, they don’t really care about the new rules.

One of our elder statesmen C class shooters moved from open to CO with a flashlight this year.

AFAIK, there aren’t more trophies out there and a flashlight isn’t going to make people insta-GM.

I diligently worked on using a 9oz “flashlight” on my S2 for about a month... you know what? I’m back to no flashlight and shooting better for it.

@RevolverRob ,I was actively competing in SCCA for over 10 years at a national level and that’s exactly how I see USPSA. The vocal minority don’t often actually represent what’s best for the sport or else PCC and CO never would have gotten off the ground.

[JCN]

I find that interesting because the common line of reasoning is that less restrictive rules means more shooters. But in reality letting people shoot whatever they want turns some people off.

I agree with this. But the question is whether letting more people shoot more stuff within a reasonable division (because they could always have shot in open before) welcome more people on than it does turn others off.

That’s the question across the little clubs nationwide.

No doubt it does turn some people off. But in my experience, a lot of people that get turned off just complain loudly but don’t actually go anywhere.

[Eyesquared]

I agree with this. But the question is whether letting more people shoot more stuff within a reasonable division (because they could always have shot in open before) welcome more people on than it does turn others off.

That’s the question across the little clubs nationwide.

No doubt it does turn some people off. But in my experience, a lot of people that get turned off just complain loudly but don’t actually go anywhere.

I don't disagree. In my experience so far there has been no real change in attendance for better or for worse due to this rule. The guys who show up are the same guys who usually show up and I haven't seen any new shooters with lights yet.

[Clusterfrack]

I don’t want rule changes to be focused on how to attract more shooters. Rules should be about the quality of our sport.

Other mechanisms are available to recruit and train new competitors.

[JCN]

I don't disagree. In my experience so far there has been no real change in attendance for better or for worse due to this rule. The guys who show up are the same guys who usually show up and I haven't seen any new shooters with lights yet.

That might be the case in your region, but in our area there are a number of new and established guys running flashlights now. They're not new shooters, but they're new to USPSA and enjoying it.

So at least over here, it's been a net positive without any negative. All our M/GM CO are not running lights except when I tried it out and I'm doing better for more dry fire practice then messing with a light.

If your region had no negative and mine had net positive... then maybe across the nation it's a net positive.... Maybe.

I don’t want rule changes to be focused on how to attract more shooters. Rules should be about the quality of our sport.

Other mechanisms are available to recruit and train new competitors.

But that's sez you. Others may see it differently and might think rules should be there to foster growth of the sport at all levels rather than focus on the quality at the top levels. And the organization won't be solvent without health at the lowest grassroots levels. For every one @Clusterfrack , there are probably 50 B/C guys that have 1.4 second draws and 0.25 splits on close open targets that rules stability doesn't matter at all to.

The average person out there isn't emotionally or intellectually honest with themselves and a sport is often an escape from having to take hard looks at themselves and put in the work.

The PF person and the M/GMs out there are the exceptions rather than the rules for most grassroots organizations and unless you have some mechanism where people can keep deluding themselves to feel good, it actually does hurt the overall health of the organization.

IMO.