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Thread: AIWB now legal in all divisions?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    I read this twice and this didnít get it.
    IPSC and USPSA are not the same organization. They have different rules. Today there are over 100 active IPSC regions - https://www.ipsc.org/ipsc/regions.php
    As of today USPSA is one of the regions of IPSC. If USPSA rules are drastically different, the question is when does IPSC kick out USPSA to be their own sport and a new IPSC region is formed in the US?

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    I read this twice and this didnít get it.

    Philosophy of current USPSA leadership is all-out increase in membership numbers and participation. This has been done through expansion of divisions, even controversial ones like PCC, and continuous relaxation of rules reducing participation hurdles.

    There is an opposing opinion within the ranks, often represented by stronger shooters, who prefer to keep this, first, as a sport and not an adjunct to tactical or EDC training and, second, as a sport with a strong tradition. Semi-annual, or so it seems, changing rules runs contrary to this set of values and is viewed by number of members as a loss of sport's structure, original purpose, and, to some extent, dilution of talent pool.

    That's my take on cheby's post, I could be wrong. I see he already replied while I was typing this.


    In regards to the rule's change, I've this comment: last year a man lost his life during a match, and USPSA allowing non-drop safe guns or mods was partly responsible for the outcome. Would've been nice if, amidst this everything goes bonanza, they actually grew a pair and introduced a plan to phase out such guns. That would've taken all of my personal gaming guns out of the game, but I would've been OK with that.
    ďWell," said Pooh, "what I like best," and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.

  3. #53
    Lowly Production C-Class olstyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    Philosophy of current USPSA leadership is all-out increase in membership numbers and participation. This has been done through expansion of divisions, even controversial ones like PCC, and continuous relaxation of rules reducing participation hurdles.

    There is an opposing opinion within the ranks, often represented by stronger shooters, who prefer to keep this, first, as a sport and not an adjunct to tactical or EDC training and, second, as a sport with a strong tradition. Semi-annual, or so it seems, changing rules runs contrary to this set of values and is viewed by number of members as a loss of sport's structure, original purpose, and, to some extent, dilution of talent pool.

    That's my take on cheby's post, I could be wrong. I see he already replied while I was typing this.
    I think there's a balance to be struck there. Growing membership is generally a good thing, for a lot of reasons. Changing rules to make it easier for people to participate more easily is generally good for that reason. If experienced/stronger shooters want to avoid the newbs, there's an easy way - shoot major matches; very few newbs will spend $100+ on a match fee. Heck, even the longer weekend matches generally have far fewer newbies than the shorter weeknight ones. That said, I agree that frequent rule changes can be jarring, and that any changes should be carefully considered before being implemented.

    In regards to the rule's change, I've this comment: last year a man lost his life during a match, and USPSA allowing non-drop safe guns or mods was partly responsible for the outcome. Would've been nice if, amidst this everything goes bonanza, they actually grew a pair and introduced a plan to phase out such guns. That would've taken all of my personal gaming guns out of the game, but I would've been OK with that.
    Couldn't agree with you more on that point. Somebody somewhere is going to drop a gun, and it would be nice for everyone present if that gun would be drop safe.

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    I donít see more weight as an advantage in Steel Challenge, also I donít think the light will help the draw.
    You are definitely correct on both points, I was just considering setting up my training and competition guns with a WML so I could run the exact same setup in both USPSA and SCSA. I also have a WML on my carry gun so I'd have identical gear on all of my guns. Thinking about it though after reading your post, I think you're right that the added weight and slower draw would definitely hinder me in SCSA more than I'd like and is not worth the drawbacks.

  5. #55
    Damnable 1911 Heretic Elwin's Avatar
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    Iím a little perplexed at the idea that making USPSA more friendly to timmies, more aligned with EDC training, or however else we put it, is a problem, much less drifting the sport away from its original purpose. If I recall correctly, complimenting tactical training WAS the original purpose of IPSC, and itís continual tendency to morph into a pure sport with fewer connections to the everyday carry of handguns for defensive purposes is something thatís had to be addressed in various ways throughout its history, whether by changing division rules, adding divisions to keep the timmies and gamers separate, or in the one case people taking their ball home and starting IDPA.

    I guess gamers kvetching that the sport is ďgoing to the timmiesĒ just doesnít make sense to me, because as far as I can tell the timmies were there first and the gamers are the ones who have always been encroaching. Not that the gamers shouldnít have a place in USPSA, but the timmies certainly donít need to be kicked out or kept out through elitist gate keeping either, and having an organization that works for both is going to require some updates every once in a while.

    At any rate Iím still selfishly fine with this rule because I am a timmy, and IDPA doesnít want my scary danger plastic in its game.

  6. #56
    Personally, I am good with membership growths and timmies and everyone else. I started to shoot USPSA out AIWB myself. Where I do share some, should we say, eye roll is that all of the recent rule changes, whatever the intent behind them, has led to making it easier to buy performance. From introduction of PCC to Production rules changes to CO rules changes. This particular set, we gonna see people who have never carried with WML (most USPSA people I know don't carry at all) start hanging lights to their game guns for more performance. And why wouldn't they if it is legal now and if previous rulings on Carry-my-ass Optic expanded weight closer to 4 lbs, and people like me have been making an advantage of that? Other sports, from high technology like F1 to low technology like tennis, have been limiting how much performance can be bought from tech itself. USPSA seems to have taken an opposite approach, and I can understand how some may have an issue with that.
    ďWell," said Pooh, "what I like best," and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk View Post
    You are definitely correct on both points, I was just considering setting up my training and competition guns with a WML so I could run the exact same setup in both USPSA and SCSA. I also have a WML on my carry gun so I'd have identical gear on all of my guns. Thinking about it though after reading your post, I think you're right that the added weight and slower draw would definitely hinder me in SCSA more than I'd like and is not worth the drawbacks.
    What divisions are you shooting in Steel Challenge? I shoot CO and PCC, and am just about to start shooting rimfire PCC optics with my Tippmann.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elwin View Post
    Iím a little perplexed at the idea that making USPSA more friendly to timmies, more aligned with EDC training, or however else we put it, is a problem, much less drifting the sport away from its original purpose. If I recall correctly, complimenting tactical training WAS the original purpose of IPSC, and itís continual tendency to morph into a pure sport with fewer connections to the everyday carry of handguns for defensive purposes is something thatís had to be addressed in various ways throughout its history, whether by changing division rules, adding divisions to keep the timmies and gamers separate, or in the one case people taking their ball home and starting IDPA.

    I guess gamers kvetching that the sport is ďgoing to the timmiesĒ just doesnít make sense to me, because as far as I can tell the timmies were there first and the gamers are the ones who have always been encroaching. Not that the gamers shouldnít have a place in USPSA, but the timmies certainly donít need to be kicked out or kept out through elitist gate keeping either, and having an organization that works for both is going to require some updates every once in a while.

    At any rate Iím still selfishly fine with this rule because I am a timmy, and IDPA doesnít want my scary danger plastic in its game.
    USPSA changes are like a general Presidential election, with half loving the changes and half hating them. I think the changes to CO, now and in the past are awesome, as they allow me to use a variant of my carry gun. I also believe CO competition has caused pistol optics to become more durable and have new features that have applicability for gaming and competition. Where I shoot, CO has become the division with most of the heat and overall the most shooters.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  8. #58
    King of Craft Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    As long as Production remains lowcap minor, I donít care that much. I wonít be adding a light to my S2s.
    "BJJ is sort of like nonconsensual yoga"
    "You donít really graduate from certain problems or certain thingsÖ like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  9. #59
    Lowly Production C-Class olstyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    As long as Production remains lowcap minor, I donít care that much. I wonít be adding a light to my S2s.
    Yeah, I'm fine with the holster position rule change. I may even take advantage of it and shoot some matches from AIWB in Production at some point.

    The one I question is the lights - the rules on holsters say that the trigger must be fully protected while the gun is holstered, but that's basically impossible with a light-bearing holster, right? Until/unless we start seeing lights that are narrower than trigger guards, I don't understand how those rules don't conflict with each other.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Elwin View Post
    Iím a little perplexed at the idea that making USPSA more friendly to timmies, more aligned with EDC training, or however else we put it, is a problem, much less drifting the sport away from its original purpose. If I recall correctly, complimenting tactical training WAS the original purpose of IPSC, and itís continual tendency to morph into a pure sport with fewer connections to the everyday carry of handguns for defensive purposes is something thatís had to be addressed in various ways throughout its history, whether by changing division rules, adding divisions to keep the timmies and gamers separate, or in the one case people taking their ball home and starting IDPA.

    I guess gamers kvetching that the sport is ďgoing to the timmiesĒ just doesnít make sense to me, because as far as I can tell the timmies were there first and the gamers are the ones who have always been encroaching. Not that the gamers shouldnít have a place in USPSA, but the timmies certainly donít need to be kicked out or kept out through elitist gate keeping either, and having an organization that works for both is going to require some updates every once in a while.

    At any rate Iím still selfishly fine with this rule because I am a timmy, and IDPA doesnít want my scary danger plastic in its game.
    At the end of the day this is a rule change that upends a lot of existing competitors' gear setups, all in hopes of attracting timmies (who I think are not going to flock to USPSA in droves over this change). It's pretty annoying to be a USPSA member and have stuff like this rammed down your throat supposedly for the benefit of potential timmie USPSA shooters, who have historically never been particularly active or interested in the sport anyways. Just look at who is posting in this thread, almost all people who already shoot USPSA, not timmie converts drawn in by this rules change. I am not anti-timmie but it's unfair to the membership to pull shit like this IMO.

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