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Thread: Nuances of running the 1911 thumb safety (thread split)

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Rushca01 View Post
    Agree, at the end of the day isn’t a 1911 with the thumb safety off just a Glock at that point?
    There are "carry" 1911s that are marketed out of box with 3.75 lbs triggers, and nobody these days sells one with above 4.5. Glock is 5.5 nominally and many are heavier. 20% to 30% heavier trigger and over 60% longer pretravel. So, no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe View Post
    Please provide something either showing Pat Mac not disengaging his safety on the draw or dictating not to do that.


    PMac very specifically teaches that safety is on until gun's raised on the target, even if you drew already with an intent to shoot. Not just 1911, any firearm that has a manual safety, including striker fired pistols. Is this what you're asking?
    Last edited by YVK; 03-07-2021 at 11:49 PM.
    Doesn't read posts longer than two paragraphs.

  2. #82
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe View Post
    I laid out clear distinctions about when to disengage on the draw and when not to. Your example of Pat Mac would also say to begin prepping the trigger of your Glock as you're pressing out. Please provide something either showing Pat Mac not disengaging his safety on the draw or dictating not to do that.

    Never did I say move around people with the weapon on fire.

    If we're talking about sympathetic response the 1lb more of a Glock and 1/4" more travel isn't making a difference.

    But again...if your finger is not on the trigger it isn't going to slide down into the trigger guard on its own. Keep your weapon pointed in a safe direction, keep your finger off the trigger, keep the weapon on safe. 3 layers to keep you from negligently discharging into someone.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rtN9CwkSwAY

    2:00-2:02 in this video. Pat Mac draws the gun on the run, stops running, you can clearly here the click of the safety as he presents the muzzle to the target.

  3. #83
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    This example is wholly in line with what I stated in my initial post:
    "2) If I am drawing the pistol proactively then the weapon does not come off safe, nor does it come out of the holster with the same speed as if when it is drawn reactively."

    Again, I laid a clear distinction between reactive and proactive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe View Post
    I laid out clear distinctions about when to disengage on the draw and when not to. Your example of Pat Mac would also say to begin prepping the trigger of your Glock as you're pressing out. Please provide something either showing Pat Mac not disengaging his safety on the draw or dictating not to do that.

    Never did I say move around people with the weapon on fire.

    If we're talking about sympathetic response the 1lb more of a Glock and 1/4" more travel isn't making a difference.

    But again...if your finger is not on the trigger it isn't going to slide down into the trigger guard on its own. Keep your weapon pointed in a safe direction, keep your finger off the trigger, keep the weapon on safe. 3 layers to keep you from negligently discharging into someone.
    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rtN9CwkSwAY

    2:00-2:02 in this video. Pat Mac draws the gun on the run, stops running, you can clearly here the click of the safety as he presents the muzzle to the target.

  4. #84
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe View Post
    This example is wholly in line with what I stated in my initial post:
    "2) If I am drawing the pistol proactively then the weapon does not come off safe, nor does it come out of the holster with the same speed as if when it is drawn reactively."

    Again, I laid a clear distinction between reactive and proactive.
    Apologies, I misread the distinction portion of your first post.

    We're on the same page.

    Draw to a stimulus of shoot right now, I'll be on the safety as soon as the muzzle clears the holster and starts rotating up.

    Ready position is an interesting situation. When I work careful clearing of the house, I'll often go onto the safety before I open a door or otherwise pie into a position to put a muzzle on a threat at close range (slow, deliberate movement). When holding and scanning and/or moving quickly - thumb under safety.

  5. #85
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    Yep, glad we could talk it out (especially in a civilized manner that seems to be absent from most of the internet).

    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    Apologies, I misread the distinction portion of your first post.

    We're on the same page.

    Draw to a stimulus of shoot right now, I'll be on the safety as soon as the muzzle clears the holster and starts rotating up.

    Ready position is an interesting situation. When I work careful clearing of the house, I'll often go onto the safety before I open a door or otherwise pie into a position to put a muzzle on a threat at close range (slow, deliberate movement). When holding and scanning and/or moving quickly - thumb under safety.

  6. #86
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe View Post
    If the shooter is startled and unintentionally takes the weapon off safe his finger is still off the trigger. So we would now be in the same position someone carrying a Glock is, that is our only safety is keeping our finger off the trigger. Tripping or falling doesn't prohibit us from carrying a striker fired gun, it should not prohibit us from assuming an optimal ready position.
    I never said it should prohibit us from carrying a SFA. I think I was also quite clear in my post that I'm not looking at this in a binary matter.

    Rather, its a sliding scale of safety. A Glock is a safe pistol to carry, and without reservation I will continue carrying my issued Glocks and performing all manner of tasks with them.

    When the USMS SOG adopted the Staccato, I thought that was a pretty good choice specifically for a team which is performing operations where the pistol will be out of the holster for an extended period of time, such as warrant service. I'm a firm believer that any sort of weapon that is not holstered for the majority of it's "work" should have a safety, which is why I hate the idea of those Glock chassis systems.

    At the same time, I totally understand @BehindBlueI's point of view. I think a safetied pistol is a slightly better mousetrap for certain uses as I've outlined. That doesn't mean a Glock is unsafe, but a pistol with a safety is objectively more safe.

    To that end, while it's perfectly acceptable to perform warrant service with a Glock, a safetied pistol is still more safe. And, to that end, running thumb under safety is more safe, and seems like a better way to do things....all else equal.

    You assert that riding the safety is ideal for making entry but are failing to support that assertion with anything objective. If it takes longer to get sights on target from a ready position than it does to disnegage the safety from a thumb-under position, then you can't really say that the thumb-under position is a hinderence.

    This reminds me of a conversation we had years ago here, about people asserting that they're quicker if they start with a staged trigger than if they start finger off trigger. A bunch of members ran drills to test the hypothesis (prove the point?) that such a notion is bullpucky, since everything else involved in making that shot took longer than moving the finger to the trigger.

    So, do you have objective data showing that thumb-under is a hinderence? Or just feelings? The latter lie.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  7. #87
    Site Supporter Elwin's Avatar
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    I've really enjoyed this thread, and I'm going to try tweaking some things based on it. I don't know that I'll switch entirely to thumb under right up until firing - with the high grip I posted about earlier, that makes for a lot of moving my support hand around to let the right thumb move up and then back down and up again. I'm going to try something kindof like what Rob just mentioned - if both my hands are together in anticipation of shooting soon, thumb on top of safety. Same I suppose if being prepared to shoot with one hand. All other times, especially when only one hand is on the gun, and most especially when moving, doing some non-shooting task, etc., I'm going to try making thumb under a habit.

  8. #88
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    I’ve experimented with thumb under the safety every day during dry-fire for the past week and feel like I have enough reps in to speak on it now.

    I’ve pretty much come to the same conclusion as Elwin. My support hand grip is high enough that I can’t get my thumb under the safety when two hands are on the gun. However, if I had to do something like go up or down a set of slippery wet wooden stairs with the gun in one hand and my support hand on a rail then I would tuck my thumb under the safety. So I do think that it’s another useful technique for certain situations.
    im strong, i can run faster than train

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by JAD View Post
    Just to check that you’re following the way I am: the suggestion is to run the thumb under the safety (with the safety engaged) while not shooting. You’re still going to have your thumb on top of the safety when shooting.

    Take a picture and show me where the bad gun is hurting you. There is often a solution.
    In the last few weeks I have been messing around with my thumb placement. But yes, I did try to shoot with my thumb under the safety. I could do it but there wasn't any room, so the strong thumb pointed outward instead of forward.

    I did figure out how and why my thumb hurt. So while riding the safety, I was riding it with all my thumb (and both thumbs pointing forward, my "Glock" grip), and when I disengage it, I was giving my thumb an "arm bar" against the 2011 frame.

    I have since figured out that if I use a lot less thumb on the safety, almost like riding the edge of the huge safety shelf, there is no pressure.

    My next focus is both on working the safety later in the draw process (aka on target) and trying to keep the thumb under the safety when it is engaged.

  10. #90
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    @FrankB posted this over in the Art and Science of 1911 thread. But it belongs here too:

    Officer exits vehicle, thumb tucked under thumb safety. Maintained that index, no problem getting the safety down and executing the shot.


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