Thumb safety pros/cons (side conversation moved from 320 lawsuit thread)

[Clusterfrack]

I certainly try to but in the couple instances I did not at all. It was usually after some sort of misfire or malfunction clearance. So clearly I am not subconscious enough.

The subconscious is really good at doing what you train it to, but it's not very smart. When I got on the SCD and TDA bus, I changed the way I holster all guns no matter what. Nothing goes into my holster unless my thumb is on the back of the slide, and so far I haven't holstered a gun with the hammer back since I sold all my 1911s and my Open gun.

[Whirlwind06]

If someone is running a TDA gun in a match is decocking between target arrays considered the best practice?

I think that’s not possible to do with a CZ Shadow but is with SIGs and Berettas. Or am I not understanding the manual of arms of the shadows and they can be carried condition 1?

[Clusterfrack]

If someone is running a TDA gun in a match is decocking between target arrays considered the best practice?

I think that’s not possible to do with a CZ Shadow but is with SIGs and Berettas. Or am I not understanding the manual of arms of the shadows and they can be carried condition 1?

Great question. I have never seen any serious USPSA competitors decock during a stage. A typical USPSA stage is from 5 to 20 seconds, with nearly constant engagement of targets. If that was a real fight, I wouldn't decock even if I was using a gun that had a decocker.

I recently shot an IDPA style outlaw match focused on real carry guns. I shot my CCW, a P-07 and found myself decocking several times when there were long distances between target arrays, or I had to exit a vehicle.

[jnc36rcpd]

While I understand that competition is different than the street, I've always been a believer in decocking before movement in the real world. When I still had relevance, that was a reason we emphasized the double to single transition in training and qualification. While I had a concern about someone popping off a round during movement in single action, it was more to emphasize the need for accuracy in a double action trigger press.

[JHC]

If someone is running a TDA gun in a match is decocking between target arrays considered the best practice?

I think that’s not possible to do with a CZ Shadow but is with SIGs and Berettas. Or am I not understanding the manual of arms of the shadows and they can be carried condition 1?

I've familiar with some Army guys that did de-cock their M9s when they went to moving. I've watched a couple de-cock between arrays in a match if there was moving but not shooting while moving. These stages were ~30 rounds, there were some fair distances to travel between target arrays and most good shooters took near a minute to complete. (for context). In shorter stages where the movement was just a couple steps to another "foot box" to shoot from they didn't.

The reason is pretty simple. In their use case, once they began running to another position, enroute they may fall, encounter team mates, no shoots or problems to be solved that do not include shooting. They ran the M9 like they would their M4.

In one case the RO advised them "you know you don't have to de-cock during this stage" and they were like, "OK, thank you sir."

But they didn't change their procedure.

[19852+]

Great question. I have never seen any serious USPSA competitors decock during a stage. A typical USPSA stage is from 5 to 20 seconds, with nearly constant engagement of targets. If that was a real fight, I wouldn't decock even if I was using a gun that had a decocker.

I recently shot an IDPA style outlaw match focused on real carry guns. I shot my CCW, a P-07 and found myself decocking several times when there were long distances between target arrays, or I had to exit a vehicle.

Yes, I did this in a recent IDPA match were one started in a car, door closed, engaging targets from within the car then exiting the car to finish. I wasn't running my Beretta 92FSc but my SIG P-210 American which has the familiar 1911-like safety. I engaged the safety before exiting, something I did without thinking since it was just natural. But I have done it with the Beretta M9 in other training and match scenarios. Like many here, I do it because I can and I want to do it.

[Oldherkpilot]

When I was into 1911s, I carried guns with nice, crisp, short, light triggers. This included a p238 (no grip safety). Even with all the training and practice I had invested in subconscious mastery, I twice holstered guns with safety off and only discovered it later.

Any chance your safety was inadvertently pushed off? When I was carrying Hi Powers, I had two instances where I knocked the right side safety lever down while working in tight quarters. I de-ambied (technical term) my HPs as a result.

[Clusterfrack]

Any chance your safety was inadvertently pushed off? When I was carrying Hi Powers, I had two instances where I knocked the right side safety lever down while working in tight quarters. I de-ambied (technical term) my HPs as a result.

It's been over 10 years since I carried a thumb-safety equipped gun, but I don't think so. After one of my ambi-safties broke at the flimsy wedge joint, like you I removed them from my guns. The most disturbing thing I remember was realizing I had been carrying a p238 with safety off (no grip safety). (It was a great little gun.)

[Clusterfrack]

While I understand that competition is different than the street, I've always been a believer in decocking before movement in the real world. When I still had relevance, that was a reason we emphasized the double to single transition in training and qualification. While I had a concern about someone popping off a round during movement in single action, it was more to emphasize the need for accuracy in a double action trigger press.

That is very interesting. I have seen over-excited competitors fire early when coming into a position.

[Cecil Burch]

I have a genuine question and this is absolutely NOT a way to argue. I truly want to know people's thoughts on this matter.

Many people in this thread has expressed their reasoning that they do not like either 1) thumb safeties, 2) TDA guns that need to be decocked, or especially 3) slide mounted safeties and prefer the simplicity of a striker fired gun. The thought behind that is essentially that those operations are difficult to be able to do all the time under all possible conditions and rather than train them, it is better to just not have them and deal with a gun that is easier to shoot.

So to be clear then - is the idea that flicking off a thumb safety, decocking, or running a slide mounted safety is a complex act that is close to impossible to train, but at the same time, it is easy to ensure that someone's finger is always where it should be? And in this case, that means always in a hard register unless there is a conscious decision to pull the trigger, even during a high stress draw or reholster?

Again, this is not a way for me to argue with folks. I am looking to see how people think in this manner, because this forum has a boatload of good critical thinkers, and I would like the input on this. I am agnostic on this and it does not chap me one way or the other what people do with their carry guns. I would just like to know what experienced and thinking people have to say.