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Thread: Thumb safety pros/cons (side conversation moved from 320 lawsuit thread)

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post


    So what are you thinking of as 'beginners' guns? Glock? DA revolvers? LEM?

    It's a moot point now because the gun is sadly discontinued, but I have always thought the ideal beginner pistol was a SIG P250. It has a really nice and smooth DAO trigger pull that is not heavy, but is not hyper-light either. It had an external hammer that you could thumb on the re-holster. With the three different frame widths, and the multiple different frame and slide configurations, you can accommodate literally everyone's hands. And you had different caliber choices - if someone had small and weak hands, you could drop down to a .380, and if they were stronger you could go 9mm and up.

    Too bad SIG screwed the pooch when they first introduced it and made a permanent bad impression and now it is gone

    An alternative could be a 3" LCRx. Again, the factory trigger is solid out of the box, and you can get a number of different grips to fit almost anyone's hand size. Plus, you can get it in .22lr, .22WMR, 327, 38, 357 and 9mm.
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  2. #92
    Wannabe Privateer RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil Burch View Post
    So there are a couple of items to think about on this.

    First, as a caveat, I have not seen a ton of safeties on guns in my classes or in any where I have AI-ed for Craig or Paul. The reason is really simple - all of Craig's Sims guns are Glocks, and almost all of my UTM guns are Glocks as well. I have a single M&P, but it does not have a thumb safety. I have one student who has trained with me and Craig multiple times who has his own Beretta 92 UTM pistol, but it is set up as a "G" model. So take some of what I am about to say as educated extrapolation, NOT as a definitive.

    While I have not seen much safety use, I have seen a lot of other emergency manipulations that are outside the basic "draw gun, aim, shoot" cycle. What you tend to find is the ones who don't have a grappling background and are looking to the tool to solve the problem, will eff up over and over again. The most usual is the timing issue of getting a gun out at the wrong time. The other culprit is the student desperately trying to get the gun out when they are in an inferior position. Not only are you extremely likely to end up having your gun taken away and used against you, you will be unlikely to do any work needed to the gun outside of "draw, point, fire". That may be disengaging a safety, but it will also include having the slide movement fouled, dropping a magazine (by hitting the release), or dealing with any other malfunction. Tool fixation as the magic woobie will be a failure 95% of the time.

    What always works is rather than focusing on the tool, we focus on dominant positional control. If we attain a superior position and maintain it, and maintain control over what the opponent can do, THEN whatever we choose to do as the appropriate finish is easy and highly likely to work. I have seen on many, many occasions, students in an evo where they have gotten to dominant positional control long enough, and they can manipulate the gun to their heart's content. I have seen people change magazines, clear complex malfunctions, switch hands, etc. without any issue because of superior position, not whether the tool was set up a certain way. I did a car evo one time where I ended up shuttlecocking (driving his head down into the floorboard) of my partner, drawing my sims gun that choked immediately, and then I tried racking it a few times on the open window edge, and when that failed tossed my gun out the window, reached around the front of the other guy, took his weapon, and when it jammed on the first round (I know - the universe was not smiling on me that day), I transitioned to hitting him on top of the FIST helmet with his gun. I would posit that if either pistol had any kind of safety, I probably would have been able to easily swipe it off. Not because I am a shooting wizard or the second coming of Jim Cirillo, but because I had dominant positional control and that wins in the entanglement.

    One last thing to add is this. Both Paul and Craig have carried 1911s (Paul has also run a 2011 I believe) and I am pretty sure they would do so again. That may be a good clue on what they think about the possible problem of a manually operated safety.
    Solid stuff! Thank you Cecil for taking the time.

    But alas, you're saying I can't fix a FUT situation by just getting a weapon out?

    ~Sigh~

    Yea, there is nothing quite like two dudes sitting on your chest and hitting you repeatedly in the FIST helmet as you squirm around and forget everything about control and just try to bitch hit or get a weapon out and 'solve' the problem, to remind you that you're currently getting your ass kicked and you suck.
    Seriously guys, are we not doing 'phrasing' anymore?

  3. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    1) I have zero issues switching between safety and non-safety guns, despite the fact that I have tens of thousands of more reps with a 1911 than anything else. I've seen this mentioned many times before. Who cares if you sweep a 'phantom' thumb safety on a Glock? It makes zero difference. Going the other way around, no safety to safety is more of a concern to me.
    Same here. My first 10 years of pistol shooting was almost exclusive to 1911s. Swiping the safety off is part of my grip, after which thumb stays on the safety. Since my training was mostly for competition, the safety never went back on unless holstering or grounding the pistol.

    In the same vain, I know many competitors talk about prepping a DA trigger. I do NOT do that. I don’t believe in pulling, or even placing the finger on the trigger until the gun is on target.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Even with all the training and practice I had invested in subconscious mastery, I twice holstered guns with safety off and only discovered it later.

    I did exactly this more than once and after I trained quite a bit to make things subconscious. In addition I have done similar with non decocked TDA pistols. None of these instances led to any sort of accident or incident, just a holstered fully cocked, unlocked firearm. Usually this would happen after some novel event during a string of fire that distracted my subconscious. Some may say that in fact, I did not (do not) have subconscious mastery of either system. That may be true, but I am at least 99.5% on remembering to safe and or decock. For me, I just made the decision to not carry pistols requiring the albeit small, extra cognitive load of a safety or decocker.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Beginners guns: Glock, DAO auto or revolver seem like good choices.
    Family doesn't train much. Spares for them if they ever take up defensive shooting are Glocks, 92Ds and revolvers.

  6. #96
    IS WHAT PLANTS CRAVE BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Glock View Post
    In addition I have done similar with non decocked TDA pistols.
    Do you verify the hammer's position by thumbing it? I've been able to be 100% on decocking and I think that tactile feedback helps. It was subconscious enough that I had an instructor ask me once if I'd just "decocked" and checked the hammer on a Glock...and the answer was yes.
    Important rule change regarding political discussion here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....58#post1151858

    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    Maybe with talented students I would lube up with baby oil and then go at it.

  7. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Do you verify the hammer's position by thumbing it? I've been able to be 100% on decocking and I think that tactile feedback helps. It was subconscious enough that I had an instructor ask me once if I'd just "decocked" and checked the hammer on a Glock...and the answer was yes.
    You do the right thing often enough, it become unconscious. I watched Larry Mudgett try to chamber check a plastic blue gun about 12 times in a class this past summer.

  8. #98
    King of Craft Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Thumb safety pros/cons (side conversation moved from 320 lawsuit thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Do you verify the hammer's position by thumbing it? I've been able to be 100% on decocking and I think that tactile feedback helps. It was subconscious enough that I had an instructor ask me once if I'd just "decocked" and checked the hammer on a Glock...and the answer was yes.
    Same here. Thumb checking the hammer has caught a potential mistake a couple times. Once was during a session of one handed draws, where I was doing mixed live and dryfire. My brain must have mixed up live and dry, and when I started to holster my thumb touched a cocked hammer. The other time was while doing some high stress EP type drills that required communication, movement, manipulation of a “VIP”, and shooting. Again, this was SHO, and my thumb check prevented me from holstering a cocked gun.

    Redundant safety procedures FTW.
    "BJJ is sort of like nonconsensual yoga"
    "You don’t really graduate from certain problems or certain things… like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  9. #99
    Wannabe Privateer RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archer1440 View Post
    You do the right thing often enough, it become unconscious. I watched Larry Mudgett try to chamber check a plastic blue gun about 12 times in a class this past summer.
    Dude. If I had a nickel for every time I've tried to chamber check my 1911 airsoft gun before doing drills, I'd be rich.

    We're talking, retire and open my own country, rich....
    Seriously guys, are we not doing 'phrasing' anymore?

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Do you verify the hammer's position by thumbing it? I've been able to be 100% on decocking and I think that tactile feedback helps. It was subconscious enough that I had an instructor ask me once if I'd just "decocked" and checked the hammer on a Glock...and the answer was yes.
    I certainly try to but in the couple instances I did not at all. It was usually after some sort of misfire or malfunction clearance. So clearly I am not subconscious enough.

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