Thumb safety pros/cons (side conversation moved from 320 lawsuit thread)

[HCM]

So there has been a lot of discussion of manipulation of safeties on 1911s, and equivalents like ARs both of which have short, light trigger pulls (and by extension short, light SFA triggers), and I agree with safety on till on target with those platforms.

But is safety to DA trigger pull equivalent to safety to SA trigger pull ?

If a decocker only DA/SA gun is acceptable in DA mode why would automatically taking the safety off on a DA gun, putting it into the same state as a decocker only model in DA mode or a DA revolver be an issue ?

The only two arguments I can think of is trading consistently with ARs (which is lowest common denominator at its worst) or gun grab attempts but the correct answer to that is normally shooting them off the gun.

[Coyotesfan97]

A sound practice especially off the flat range where uneven terrain may be an issue and holstering up is not a good option.

So the next logical step with all this is how does the hive mind feel about the safety on the AR? Is it used during movement, reloads, etc or is likely should be or is it taken off and left off during whichever shooting/training string is taking place?

Pat McNamara calls the AR safety an enabler and not a disabler. He wants the safety engaged pretty much any time the rifle is not actually being fired.

We trained pretty much as McMamara trains. As the rifle comes off to fire the safety comes off. When you go to low ready the safety goes on. Reloading, moving, slinging the rifle the safety goes on. Transition drills with an empty rifle safety on. You lost points on the qual if you slung a rifle without putting it on safe. Our range guys wanted muscle memory with the AR safety and they insist on it. We had NDs from guys slinging ARs without the safety on and the trigger catching on gear on the vest. Fortunately no injuries from them.

Safety engaged pretty much any time the rifle is not actually being fired.

That’s what we trained.

How hard was it to make AR safety manipulations a habit?

I’ll be honest it was more of an issue for me but a lot of it was carrying MP5s and a 53 for many years. We didn’t put MP5s on safe when we did stuff. After I went through the instructor class I started using my support hand to engage the safety over the top of the receiver. Now after many years of carrying the AR I’m pretty instinctive on disengaging/engaging it.

[octagon]

I am of the thought process that simpler is better where it can be reasonably accomplished. This is for the complexity of the gun, manual of arms in administrative environment and in stress environments. Adding parts to a gun that need to be correctly fitting,wear and need to be cleaned and maintained and associated cost is small but not immeasurable. Adding a step or two steps in administrative handling is a minor issue also. Adding a step or two in a stress environment if it isn't necessary doesn't keep with simplicity and adds an element of failure.

Some examples: Our agency had Sig226s and the manual of arms was to load, decock, holster then top off magazine. When shooting it was draw,shoot, decock,scan and holster. Even after years of daily carry and repeated training sessions and days we had users fail to decock when holstering or attempting to holster. Training problem sure but it happened and not just in extremely rare circumstances. When we switched to Glocks the manual of arms eliminated the decock step in admin,shooting and stress environments. This could have lead to NDs when drawing or holstering but didn't. This is just a small sample of 250-300 LEOS over 17 years so not all inclusive.

We added ARs for patrol rifles about 10 years before I retired. In the first few years we had plenty of users who failed to put them on safe after shooting and especially when moving or changing positions. This includes 1 ND I was present for with a slung AR that discharged close to an officers foot in a low stress training situation. This improved but being on safe for all users consistently when they were not shooting was always something that was looked for and corrected. This was with the standards of the patrol rifle program being 24 hour 3 day voluntary program so not just an agency wide issue to all officers situation.

To me I don't know how you can use an AR correctly without a manual safety nor other firearms of similar designs especially those that are not drop safe,don't have a firing pin safety or are true single action designs. That doesn't mean the safety won't be used properly every time nor that there won't be failures to be off safe when desired or needed. For me I'll take a well designed safety when I have to but on Glocks and similar safe designs that don't have or need a manual safety to be safe to use I prefer them.

[RevolverRob]

So there has been a lot of discussion of manipulation of safeties on 1911s, and equivalents like ARs both of which have short, light trigger pulls (and by extension short, light SFA triggers), and I agree with safety on till on target with those platforms.

But is safety to DA trigger pull equivalent to safety to SA trigger pull ?

If a decocker only DA/SA gun is acceptable in DA mode why would automatically taking the safety off on a DA gun, putting it into the same state as a decocker only model in DA mode or a DA revolver be an issue ?

The only two arguments I can think of is trading consistently with ARs (which is lowest common denominator at its worst) or gun grab attempts but the correct answer to that is normally shooting them off the gun.

I suspect - and have long suspected - that the the TDA decock safety as we most often see it (Walther, Beretta, Smith) were intended to primarily prevent NDs during administrative loading and handling.

To me there is nothing inherently more or less safe between a TDA with decocked and safety off and TDA decock only decocked. They are equivalent states. The addition of the safety on is superfluous, to me from a martial use of the pistol perspective.

Lowest common denominator training, however, suggests that in environments where weapons are regularly handled administratively, the safety on, dead trigger, could reduce NDs.

Arguably, the reason you cannot set the safety on a 1911 or BHP with the hammer uncocked is because the original military manual of arms stipulated they were carried Condition 3 and safeties were only used when the gun had been charged and returning to Condition 3 could not be done safely, but shooting wasn't occurring.

[BehindBlueI's]

I find them very concerning. I don't think there is a reasonable alternative to a thumb safety in an AR. That doesn't mean it's not problematic in the same ways as for handguns.

@BehindBlueI's has solid data showing an alarming correlation between safety misuse and losing self-defense encounters. I doubt comparable data exist for defensive use of long guns. However, I've observed numerous cases of people in classes and matches failing to take off or put on their AR safeties when needed. This happens more in newer shooters and less often (but not never) in squared away operators and competitors.

Often it happens under pressure when unexpected things happen. I've seen it happen in a class where a guy got stung by an insect.

I'm not at a real keyboard, but short version is it has been less of an issue with shotguns and a non issue with the AR. Reasoning later.

So I don't have nearly as many long gun deployments by the general non-criminal citizenry as I do handguns, and due to the small sample size are of less value. I will also say the AR users tended to be guys who'd used them before for real abroad. The safety was never a factor for them. It may be for less dedicated/experienced users. The AR is a very ergonomic safety to operate, though, and the completely locked trigger gives instant feedback. I looked at my stats, and there were no issues of citizens failing to get the safety off and pulling a dead trigger on a long gun of any kind. Gun locks, but no built in safeties. I know cops who've pulled a shotgun trigger with the safety still on, though.

I think long gun safeties as a rule are less problematic due to several factors, but not least of which is you aren't hastily grabbing it up and immediately employing it. You pick it up and settle it into however you're going to grip and hold it, then start working your problem. With a handgun, you are very likely to be working a problem before you ever even reach for the gun. There's so much less chance for "compromised grip" or "attempting to manipulate while being grappled" or other issues that cause people to screw up with handguns.

[Clusterfrack]

I am of the thought process that simpler is better where it can be reasonably accomplished. ...Adding a step or two in a stress environment if it isn't necessary doesn't keep with simplicity and adds an element of failure.

...we had users fail to decock when holstering or attempting to holster.

Great points. From the civilian side as well, simpler is usually better. I don't think TDAs are beginners guns*, and the requirement of decocking is a major part of that.

I build in a thumb check before holstering to make sure I don't holster without decocking. I've caught myself 2 or 3 times ever, but that's not zero.

*I also don't think 1911s are beginners guns. Nor are any SFAs with a short, light trigger.

[Trooper224]

The Glock was meant to be the ultimate, lowest common denominator weapon and it exceeds very well at that. You can teach a drunken monkey to use one. That's one of the reasons bean counters love to equip cops and leg troops with them and their like. The two aren't far removed from the aforementioned drunken monkies. The thing that makes them dangerous also applies to SA and TDA guns in equal measure: training, or the lack thereof.

Yes, you can forget to engage or disengage the safety on an SA gun, forget to decock a TDA gun and get your finger on the trigger of a striker fired gun, if your training is lacking.

When I first went on the job, I worked with an older Trooper who'd spent most of his career in the revolver era. At the time our standard issue sidearm was the Sig P220. During qualification he would habitually forget to decock before holstering.

I once saw a Glock armed deputy shoot a proned out subject in the left buttocks when he got his finger on the trigger when he shouldn't have.

I've seen amateurs forget to manipulate the safety on a 1911 on both ends of the process. I will note, I've never seen professionals, either LE, Mil, or ever paid competitive shooters have this problem. I've seen the same occur in the same ratio with the AR15.

I started my career with a revolver, I've used SA, TDA and striker fired guns extensively and prefer the systems in the following order of preference: SA, TDA, striker. I don't mind a manual safety. I've used one for so long it's second nature. I've developed a strong liking for TDA guns, having spent several years working with them almost exclusively. The decocker isn't a problem, although the addition of a mechanical safety seems a bit retarded on a a TDA pistol. Striker guns are what they are and I work with them because it seems I'll be issued one until I retire from the world for good.

I've never had an issue with any of these systems for a couple of reasons, I think. First, I train and I don't jump back and forth between systems on a daily, or even weekly basis. For the last year or so I've gone back to carrying a 1911. Lately, I've been getting the itch to change it up to a TDA, so my last couple of range sessions
Have been dedicated to that end. Second, i have a better than average sense of mechanical comprehension, one of the few good things I inherited from my father.

In the end, the only conclusion I can draw is this: they are all safe and dangerous in equal measure. The only quantifiable factor is training, or the lack of it. Each one has benefits, but they can all go sideways in the hands of the untrained. So, debates on safety or not, TDA or striker, are all largely irrelevant academic exercises. An untrained dummy will find a way to screw it up.

In short, it's a software, not a hardware issue. Of course, that's the thing no one likes to talk about because it's the least quantifiable and may lead to some uncomfortable self analysis.

[RevolverRob]

I think long gun safeties as a rule are less problematic due to several factors, but not least of which is you aren't hastily grabbing it up and immediately employing it. You pick it up and settle it into however you're going to grip and hold it, then start working your problem. With a handgun, you are very likely to be working a problem before you ever even reach for the gun. There's so much less chance for "compromised grip" or "attempting to manipulate while being grappled" or other issues that cause people to screw up with handguns.

There is a lot to digest on these thoughts here, BBI (especially bolded). Thanks for them.

Since we have a sizeable number of ECQC Alumni here - anyone have thoughts to help us contextualize the deactivation of a pistol safety while grappling?

Seems like we could get some really good professional experience from @Cecil Burch, @SouthNarc, and @Paul Sharp - I know Paul has run safety equipped guns in the past, including things like a 2011.

Great points. From the civilian side as well, simpler is usually better. I don't think TDAs are beginners guns*, and the requirement of decocking is a major part of that.

I build in a thumb check before holstering to make sure I don't holster without decocking. I've caught myself 2 or 3 times ever, but that's not zero.

*I also don't think 1911s are beginners guns. Nor are any SFAs with a short, light trigger.

So what are you thinking of as 'beginners' guns? Glock? DA revolvers? LEM?

[SCCY Marshal]

...Transition drills with an empty rifle safety on. You lost points on the qual if you slung a rifle without putting it on safe. Our range guys wanted muscle memory with the AR safety and they insist on it. We had NDs from guys slinging ARs without the safety on and the trigger catching on gear on the vest. Fortunately no injuries from them...

A buddy almost caught a 5.56, yesterday. He noticed a guy timing transitions from AR to GLOCK on a plate and that the rifle's muzzle was close to muzzling other people on the line in addition to the safety being left off. He went back to his car behind the firing line to wait for the dude to finish. Then the ice erupted just in front of his bumper when the rifle discharged.

Shooter looked surprised for a few seconds then resumed doing the drill exactly as before. Buddy left entirely.

The particular sore in his story was the shooter's range buddy. That guy was shooting the same drill but engaging the safety before every drop on the sling. Didn't call his partner on the cockup.

[Coyotesfan97]

A buddy almost caught a 5.56, yesterday. He noticed a guy timing transitions from AR to GLOCK on a plate and that the rifle's muzzle was close to muzzling other people on the line in addition to the safety being left off. He went back to his car behind the firing line to wait for the dude to finish. Then the ice erupted just in front of his bumper when the rifle discharged.

Shooter looked surprised for a few seconds then resumed doing the drill exactly as before. Buddy left entirely.

The particular sore in his story was the shooter's range buddy. That guy was shooting the same drill but engaging the safety before every drop on the sling. Didn't call his partner on the cockup.

That’s why we were/are so insistent that the safety going on before you drop the rifle into the slung position especially if you are doing practice drills like that. Depending on the type of sling you’re using you’ll be close to muzzling the shooter next to you or yourself. Safety goes on even if you know the bolt locked back.