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Thread: Thumb safety pros/cons (side conversation moved from 320 lawsuit thread)

  1. #81
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    @YVK
    @Clusterfrack

    I think safety off when pressing out and on target is probably the most acceptable and safest way of doing it.

    Can I run my procedure by you guys and why I settled on it?

    I currently run a TSO with ambi wide safety in competition from 3 o'clock OWB AlphaX holster.
    I currently carry a P365 with standard manual safety AIWB.

    For competition, the wide safety ledge is a thumbrest for my crush grip so I get the grip as I come down onto the holster and the safety comes off as I establish grip in the holster. My thought is... the OWB race holster isn't pointed at my leg and doesn't sweep my body on drawing and I try and have good finger discipline at all times. In my mind, it's no different than running around a course with the safety off with just one hand on the gun (as long as the draw doesn't sweep the body).

    For carry, I do a similar thing.
    When I get my grip in the holster for the P365 the safety automatically comes off as the gun comes out of the holster.
    My thought being that I don't want the process to be any different from any other CCW gun or draw and I don't want to "add" a step to the press out.
    People draw regular P365s without safeties all the time and if I disengage the safety in the holster, then I'm basically drawing a non-safety gun which I'm comfortable with.

    It also lets me change between safety and non-safety type guns seamlessly.
    It also removes a failure point if my OODA loop is interrupted during the press out.
    If I flicked off safety during press out, what would happen if you got hit or tackled before you could press out? Or if you couldn't press out and had to shoot from retention or non-standard shooting position. It might be enough cognitive overload that you could fail to disengage the safety when you really needed it.

    So for me, if the gun comes out of the holster it's live and ready to fire. Just like any other gun.
    I basically only use the safety to reduce chance of discharge when it's in the holster as extra redundancy or in case the gun accidentally comes out a little from the holster (I don't like super tight retention in my holsters, but if I were to carry a non-safety gun I'd increase the retention on the holster.

    Thoughts?
    Recently, a competitive shooter shot herself with her open gun on the draw. Fortunately it was fairly superficial to the outer thigh. But, this happened because she took the safety off and got on the trigger early.

    I’ll defer to 1911/2011 shooters about when in the draw the safety comes off.

    For a gun like the 365, I agree with @YVK. Safety off in the holster.
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  2. #82
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    One of the things I keep seeing regarding the M9 is something I tried to address, but I'm not sure if I was clear enough.

    Yeah, anyone can take an M9 off safe in a holster prior to establishing a grip. Thats's not evidence the Beretta slide mounted safety is just fine, and it's also not evidence that the rest of us who don't like the setup are mouth breathing retards that simply haven't been shown the one true way to disengage the safety. No, you don't have a secret sauce that few have discovered....and yes, I've been shown and taught multiple different theories on how to run the safety.

    The slide mounted safety is subpar because the solutions for getting everyone of all dexterity and hand/thumb sizes to reliably disengage it is either to use your off hand, or as described here several times, do so while the gun is holstered before you've established a full grip. The entire idea is an admittance to the fact that the safety is subpar and not easily/reliably manipulated by a significant portion of users. It also does not address the times when you are starting with the gun on safe, and not in the holster. Such strings of fire were not only part of the USMC qualification, but also a reasonable circumstance to encounter in the regular use of the pistol if you teach, dictate by policy, or follow a "on target/off safe, off target/on safe" approach to manipulations. The gun is not always going to be in a holster, so saying, "just off safe it in a holster, you haven't been taught how to do it right" is just fucking retarded.

    So, it's great and all that a few of you here figured how to take a pistol off safe while it's in the holster....you were taught "This One Simple Easy Trick", which isn't that mind-blowing to begin with, and is what I was taught as well. However, that's not really addressing the issue with the subpar slide mounted safety, and in reality is actually evidence that it sucks compared to manual thumb safeties found on the 1911, M&P, etc which are reliably manipulated by virtually any user (regardless if they have a preference for one or the other)..
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  3. #83
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post

    Do folks really go on safe and off safe with pistols and rifles when in da street or real world when faced with unknown opponents. In the NTI, we had dummies just pop out, surprise.
    Based on the instruction I've had from Frank Proctor (teaching a military oriented course of instruction) and from Kevin B, I've learned yes they do. Absolutely for activity that isn't on target and shooting. Frank drilled us safing an AR for an emergency reload and the context was all the chaos that can come next. Like a buddy looking for cover an jumping and landing on you in the midst of your reload etc.
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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Recently, a competitive shooter shot herself with her open gun on the draw. Fortunately it was fairly superficial to the outer thigh. But, this happened because she took the safety off and got on the trigger early.

    I’ll defer to 1911/2011 shooters about when in the draw the safety comes off.
    I think it's important to be able to draw to a on-safe, straight trigger finger; a off-safe, straight trigger finger; a off-safe, prepped trigger; and a draw to a shot.

    If I'm drawing to an off-safe state, I'll knock the safety off as my support hand index finger hits my strong hand middle finger and as the muzzle is arriving in a horizontal attitude. I'm certainly interested to read about others do it as well.
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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergeron View Post
    I think it's important to be able to draw to a on-safe, straight trigger finger; a off-safe, straight trigger finger; a off-safe, prepped trigger; and a draw to a shot.

    If I'm drawing to an off-safe state, I'll knock the safety off as my support hand index finger hits my strong hand middle finger and as the muzzle is arriving in a horizontal attitude. I'm certainly interested to read about others do it as well.
    Options are good..... the “if I get my gun out things are getting loud” is something that seemed common and I bought into when I first started carrying that after study I learned was soooo wrong.
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  6. #86
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergeron View Post
    I think it's important to be able to draw to a on-safe, straight trigger finger; a off-safe, straight trigger finger; a off-safe, prepped trigger; and a draw to a shot.

    If I'm drawing to an off-safe state, I'll knock the safety off as my support hand index finger hits my strong hand middle finger and as the muzzle is arriving in a horizontal attitude. I'm certainly interested to read about others do it as well.
    When would you draw to a prepped trigger?
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
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  7. #87
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    @YVK
    @Clusterfrack

    I think safety off when pressing out and on target is probably the most acceptable and safest way of doing it.

    Can I run my procedure by you guys and why I settled on it?

    I currently run a TSO with ambi wide safety in competition from 3 o'clock OWB AlphaX holster.
    I currently carry a P365 with standard manual safety AIWB.

    For competition, the wide safety ledge is a thumbrest for my crush grip so I get the grip as I come down onto the holster and the safety comes off as I establish grip in the holster. My thought is... the OWB race holster isn't pointed at my leg and doesn't sweep my body on drawing and I try and have good finger discipline at all times. In my mind, it's no different than running around a course with the safety off with just one hand on the gun (as long as the draw doesn't sweep the body).

    For carry, I do a similar thing.
    When I get my grip in the holster for the P365 the safety automatically comes off as the gun comes out of the holster.
    My thought being that I don't want the process to be any different from any other CCW gun or draw and I don't want to "add" a step to the press out.
    People draw regular P365s without safeties all the time and if I disengage the safety in the holster, then I'm basically drawing a non-safety gun which I'm comfortable with.

    If it works for you...My opinion as a 1911 shooter - the placement of the safety on the CZ is the reason I don't shoot SA CZs. In order to establish a grip on the gun, you end up deactivating the safety. The ability to ride underneath the safety during movement trumps, in my opinion, all other things. The thumb safety should be able to be activated and deactivated on your command, and not interfere with your overall grip on the gun. How you choose to do it, is up to you. However, on a CZ, once the thumb safety is off, you're looking at nothing touching the trigger to keep it from going off.

    Regarding the 365, that's again up to you. I think you're right in assuming many 365s aren't carried on safe. So it's not a big deal overall. It also has a longer trigger pull than the TSO.


    It also lets me change between safety and non-safety type guns seamlessly.
    It also removes a failure point if my OODA loop is interrupted during the press out.
    If I flicked off safety during press out, what would happen if you got hit or tackled before you could press out? Or if you couldn't press out and had to shoot from retention or non-standard shooting position. It might be enough cognitive overload that you could fail to disengage the safety when you really needed it.

    So for me, if the gun comes out of the holster it's live and ready to fire. Just like any other gun.
    I basically only use the safety to reduce chance of discharge when it's in the holster as extra redundancy or in case the gun accidentally comes out a little from the holster (I don't like super tight retention in my holsters, but if I were to carry a non-safety gun I'd increase the retention on the holster.

    Thoughts?
    There is a lot to hit here.

    1) I have zero issues switching between safety and non-safety guns, despite the fact that I have tens of thousands of more reps with a 1911 than anything else. I've seen this mentioned many times before. Who cares if you sweep a 'phantom' thumb safety on a Glock? It makes zero difference. Going the other way around, no safety to safety is more of a concern to me.

    2) Safety on press out. Okay, here's the deal, unless the gun is being wrenched away from you, the safety isn't going anywhere. So, if you can get on the safety or under it with a hard index, you'll know precisely where it is. Rolling the thumb over the safety and thumbing it down is so natural that after a few thousand reps its automatic. I do not 'think' about the safety anymore on a 1911. I establish a grip and if the muzzle is going towards the target, get on the safety and snap it off. If the muzzle breaks from the target, roll under and snap the safety on. This is with a 1911 or BHP. Again the CZ safety sucks compared to a good 1911 safety. It's at best sort of vague in its click and the shape isn't conducive to being turned off and on without radically adjusting your grip. A 1911/BHP can be done without changing the grip pretty much at all.

    3) Shooting from non-standard positions same story, muzzle moves to target - safety off -. Again you have to drill this and drill it and drill it and drill it and drill it - thousands of reps to get it to be purely subconscious.

    ___

    Again it's up to you how you do it. In my opinion the thumb safety on a gun isn't to keep it safe in the holster. The holster design generally keeps the gun safe. The thumb safety is in place to make movement with a gun that has a light trigger pull safe(r) and to make re-holstering safe(r). If you're not using the thumb safety in this way, you're losing at least half of the value of the thumb safety.

    FWIW, in my experience, 'tactical' trainers will typically not let you run around their range with the safety off on a single action gun with gun in hand. I know that's how many professional shooters do it. That's cool, it's one of those things that separates 'competition' and 'real life'. In real life, you're pretty likely to be stepping over/around/running into obstacles that don't exist on the range (for instance, I've never seen a curb and a sidewalk on a range in a competition stage, yet I see them constantly in real life), doing that with a single action gun, safety off, is a good way to end up with an ND.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    There is a lot to digest on these thoughts here, BBI (especially bolded). Thanks for them.

    Since we have a sizeable number of ECQC Alumni here - anyone have thoughts to help us contextualize the deactivation of a pistol safety while grappling?

    Seems like we could get some really good professional experience from @Cecil Burch, @SouthNarc, and @Paul Sharp - I know Paul has run safety equipped guns in the past, including things like a 2011.



    So what are you thinking of as 'beginners' guns? Glock? DA revolvers? LEM?


    So there are a couple of items to think about on this.

    First, as a caveat, I have not seen a ton of safeties on guns in my classes or in any where I have AI-ed for Craig or Paul. The reason is really simple - all of Craig's Sims guns are Glocks, and almost all of my UTM guns are Glocks as well. I have a single M&P, but it does not have a thumb safety. I have one student who has trained with me and Craig multiple times who has his own Beretta 92 UTM pistol, but it is set up as a "G" model. So take some of what I am about to say as educated extrapolation, NOT as a definitive.

    While I have not seen much safety use, I have seen a lot of other emergency manipulations that are outside the basic "draw gun, aim, shoot" cycle. What you tend to find is the ones who don't have a grappling background and are looking to the tool to solve the problem, will eff up over and over again. The most usual is the timing issue of getting a gun out at the wrong time. The other culprit is the student desperately trying to get the gun out when they are in an inferior position. Not only are you extremely likely to end up having your gun taken away and used against you, you will be unlikely to do any work needed to the gun outside of "draw, point, fire". That may be disengaging a safety, but it will also include having the slide movement fouled, dropping a magazine (by hitting the release), or dealing with any other malfunction. Tool fixation as the magic woobie will be a failure 95% of the time.

    What always works is rather than focusing on the tool, we focus on dominant positional control. If we attain a superior position and maintain it, and maintain control over what the opponent can do, THEN whatever we choose to do as the appropriate finish is easy and highly likely to work. I have seen on many, many occasions, students in an evo where they have gotten to dominant positional control long enough, and they can manipulate the gun to their heart's content. I have seen people change magazines, clear complex malfunctions, switch hands, etc. without any issue because of superior position, not whether the tool was set up a certain way. I did a car evo one time where I ended up shuttlecocking (driving his head down into the floorboard) of my partner, drawing my sims gun that choked immediately, and then I tried racking it a few times on the open window edge, and when that failed tossed my gun out the window, reached around the front of the other guy, took his weapon, and when it jammed on the first round (I know - the universe was not smiling on me that day), I transitioned to hitting him on top of the FIST helmet with his gun. I would posit that if either pistol had any kind of safety, I probably would have been able to easily swipe it off. Not because I am a shooting wizard or the second coming of Jim Cirillo, but because I had dominant positional control and that wins in the entanglement.

    One last thing to add is this. Both Paul and Craig have carried 1911s (Paul has also run a 2011 I believe) and I am pretty sure they would do so again. That may be a good clue on what they think about the possible problem of a manually operated safety.
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  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    When would you draw to a prepped trigger?
    Small targets, hard shots. I find I can hit better to draw to a prepped trigger and finish the shot after all the other motion stops. I'm sure that I also need more practice.
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  10. #90
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergeron View Post
    I'm sure that I also need more practice.
    Who doesn't?
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

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