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Thread: Can't take a life article

  1. #1
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    Can't take a life article

    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...ng-human-life/

    Interesting piece - the question being on whether you could take a life. This has been controversial for years. Ayoob discusses it on asking yourself this question. Marshall (albeit controversial) discussed soldiers unable to do that.

    Violence: A Micro-sociological Theory by Randall Collins is long treatise on what factors promote or inhibit close in interpersonal violence.

    In The FBI Way: Inside the Bureau's Code of Excellence by Frank Figliuzzi (got it from the library), he discusses trainees who quit after the first range experience with a humanoid target.


    Anyway, it got me think about training scars, so to speak. I've seen some instances where folks walked away from firearms usage. In one case during FOF, two participants came face to face. One fired and the other didn't. The latter said that they couldn't do it. Left the training. In the same class, a self-proclaimed martial arts expert froze and just retreated until he was knocked down.

    In another, using shotguns, carbines and handguns - one participant said that they would never touch a gun after seeing the damage to a humanoid target.

    I respect those who realize this and make that decision. Good they find that out, I would think. Any other insights into such realixations in training experiences.

  2. #2
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    It's a question anyone who carries or uses a firearm for self defense needs to try to answer ahead of time. I have not taken a human life personally (hopefully that will never change), but I have been involved in violent altercations. In those, I acted for what I believe were the right reasons and the fact that a person I considered an "evil doer" was hurt did not affect me negatively.

    The morality of killing in self defense is something each of us needs to have already squared away as much as possible if we are to carry a gun for self defense. It's not really a moral dilemma in my mind.

  3. #3
    This is why I encourage people taking up shooting for self defense to get a little hunting in, even if they have no interest. Coming up on a still warm, sometimes still bleeding animal you just killed hammers home that pulling a trigger is a permanent event with permanent consequences. I think that gets missed hitting paper and cardboard.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by MickAK View Post
    This is why I encourage people taking up shooting for self defense to get a little hunting in, even if they have no interest. Coming up on a still warm, sometimes still bleeding animal you just killed hammers home that pulling a trigger is a permanent event with permanent consequences. I think that gets missed hitting paper and cardboard.
    And sometimes still heaving, coughing up blood, seeing the life go out of it. Yeah, serious business. I tell people I hunt because I eat meat and I don't want to be a hypocrite. Killing a deer and getting literal blood on my hands is my annual reality check, and I don't take it lightly.

  5. #5
    At one time I believed that even people who say they couldn't take a life would absolutely be able to if they found themselves involved in a violent encounter and there were no other option. I figured there had to be some type of self preservation instinct that would manifest itself.

    Some time ago my wife and I were watching a true crime documentary about a serial rapist in CA. One of the women was able to get ahold of a pair of scissors while she was being raped and could not bring herself to stab him in the abdomen, throat, or any other vital area despite the circumstances. Instead, she stabbed him softly in the arms and other places she felt were not life threatening in the hopes it would stop the attack. He let her live, so I guess you could say it kinda worked for her, but not a strategy I'd want to rely on. What wasn't discussed was that he went on to rape more women.

    In the moment, it may be about saving your own, but it can also mean saving the lives of others.
    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
    I love a sub second aiwb A zone hit so much that my hands twitch when the microwave goes off.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Friday View Post
    In the moment, it may be about saving your own, but it can also mean saving the lives of others.
    Rubicon passed.

  7. #7
    IS WHAT PLANTS CRAVE BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    I fully believe men are born with the ability to take a life, but get socialized out of it in the modern West. (The Dark Side of Man is a good read). I can't say I saw a correlation between hunting and a real shooting personally, but maybe because farm life includes slaughtering and processing animals. Ball peen hammer to kill rabbits, hatchet to kill chickens sort of processing. I get in the modern world that's a foreign experience to the vast majority of the population. Hell, there's a solid chance more people in the US are combat vets then have bashed a bunny's head and skinned him out for dinner. Hunting might be a good primer for folks like that, but I think realistic FoF may be better.
    Important rule change regarding political discussion here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....58#post1151858

    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    Maybe with talented students I would lube up with baby oil and then go at it.

  8. #8
    I think hunting has some merit, but Iím probably biased for a different reason. Having been in EMS for over two decades, Iíve witnessed so much death that itís not even remotely abstract anymore. But as far as hunting goes, Iíve shot deer and hogs and happily eaten the meat, but I also made it a point to kill a hog with a knife a couple of times since I carry a knife for ostensibly defensive use. The connection is nebulous at best, but I still think a valid correlation exists. Hunting teaches you things about yourself that are hard to learn elsewhere.

  9. #9
    Member Trooper224's Avatar
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    Seeing death is one thing, dealing death is something else entirely.

    When anyone asks me for advice on choosing a gun for carry, the first question I always ask is, "Can you kill another human being?" The legal verbiage of "Shooting to stop the threat" has always irritated me. I've always considered it an exercise in semantic masturbation meant to satisfy land shark attorneys. If we correctly deploy our weapon we know what the end result is likely to be, best to face it up front. After I've asked that question, if I get anything other than a simple affirmative response I advise them to forget about it. That moment of gravest extreme (credit to Mas for that one) is not the time to figure it out.

    My years of training and street experience have shown me one thing: you never know who will rise to the occasion and who won't. I've seen men who looked like DEVGRU Delta Rangers turn out to be abject pussies. Conversely, I've seen people no one would have looked at twice turn out to be stone cold face shooters, on both sides of the badge.
    We may lose or we may win, but we will never be hear again.......

  10. #10
    happy sharps enabler Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Hunting might be a good primer for folks like that, but I think realistic FoF may be better.
    I guess Iíll chime in on that last line of thought, in the spirit of honesty, and presented for what itís worth.

    One of the odder take-aways from one of the ECQC courses I took was during the one-on-one grounded evo, during the round where it was my turn to be on my back, and Craig started us with guns out, and the other/support hand on the opponentís gun. Since I was on my back, and Iíd trained just barely enough spider guard in the local jits place to be a danger to myself and everyone else around me, I figured I could strip him, and give him the business with my j-frame (Craig had given me advance permission to run a J in the class, and I had used a 640 for the range, and let Craig control a second 642 with colored grips on it for the sim portion).

    The upshot was me stripping his hand off the gun, and then unloading 5 sims into him at point blank, using what was in fact my actual most carried gun at the time (on my own time).

    The evo went fine, and he returned the favor when we swapped places, and everyone went home beat up, sim scarred, tired, and quite happy.

    The brain tracks visualization as if reality, and it clearly tracks that sort of sim/evo stimulus as reality too, because I know that I will take the look on his face when I put 5 in his chest to my grave. I mean, I never lost any sleep over it, but it was a very personal moment for a split second, and itís absolutely burned into my consciousness for the rest of my life, or Alzheimer's, whichever comes first.

    All to say, I think I agree with you about the FoF, without having any direct combat experience to compare it too.

    (Iíve also shot a whole pile of furry and feathered things when I was a youth. The ECQC evolution was completely different. Something about looking into the eyes of another person while pulling the trigger on an actual J-frame is not for the faint of heart.)

    If itís all the same to life, Iím just as happy to continue on my way through it without actually shooting anyone.
    ĒIt's important to remember that ALL news media is a consumer product. Just like soda and fast food, they don't have any incentive to make it good for you, just addictive enough for you to keep coming back for more.Ē
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