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Thread: Can't take a life article

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Borderland View Post
    https://youtu.be/T7-6dIwezSI

    I especially like this movie as there is a character that doesn't want take a life. He demonstrates that by letting a German soldier kill an American soldier in combat. He had full control of the situation and still didn't act. In the end he decides he needs to shoot a smart ass German soldier who calls him a coward.
    I have never before heard anyone look at the Upham character in any kind of positive light. Thereís nothing about him that is worthy of anything but disgust. He was a coward and people with his personality type sneak into the military and LE more often than they should be allowed. I worked with a guy who reminds me of Upham and heís a danger to everyone around him because he routinely would not act when it was needed. But he talked a good game when new people were around.

    Im hoping you meant you liked that scene because itís an example of how not to behave and relevant to this discussion.

  2. #52
    Brass Rat Borderland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
    I have never before heard anyone look at the Upham character in any kind of positive light. Thereís nothing about him that is worthy of anything but disgust. He was a coward and people with his personality type sneak into the military and LE more often than they should be allowed. I worked with a guy who reminds me of Upham and heís a danger to everyone around him because he routinely would not act when it was needed. But he talked a good game when new people were around.

    Im hoping you meant you liked that scene because itís an example of how not to behav e and relevant to this discussion.
    Just a character in a movie that portrayed an individual that wasn't cut out to be a combat soldier yet was thrust head long into a combat situation. I thought the scene did a pretty good job of depicting a guy with a moral dilemma. How people like that end up in combat or in LE I have no clue. A persons religion or moral convictions is their own business. If you can't shoot a person then maybe you shouldn't carry a gun.
    In the P-F basket of deplorables.

  3. #53
    Unreconstructed Moylan's Avatar
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    I think the movie shows his failure to save his comrade wasn't due to moral or religious qualms, it was due to cowardice--which he managed to overcome when his reputation was later on the line. And at least in this case, the guy was in combat because (a) he was drafted and (b) despite managing to land in a REMF position (no disrespect to REMF's--I was one in the NG myself), he got dragged into a combat situation because, after all, any soldier is first and foremost a rifleman.

    I agree with El Cid that the scene where he fails to protect his fellow troop is strongly connected to this thread, and in his case it looks like maybe some better training was called for. Speaking for myself, as a former REMF, my 8 weeks of BCT training really didn't make me into an infantryman of any sort, including mentally. I don't remember it ever actually occurring to me during basic that I was training to kill commies. It was all very abstract. Of course, I was 17 years old and maybe too immature to really be there anyway, but that's another issue. I suspect that Marine training is much better at taking your average kid and helping turn him into a rifleman than Army training is. But I wouldn't know. Looking back, I wish I'd joined the Marines. Semper Fi.
    O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason.

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Borderland View Post
    Just a character in a movie that portrayed an individual that wasn't cut out to be a combat soldier yet was thrust head long into a combat situation. I thought the scene did a pretty good job of depicting a guy with a moral dilemma. How people like that end up in combat or in LE I have no clue. A persons religion or moral convictions is their own business. If you can't shoot a person then maybe you shouldn't carry a gun.
    Agreed. Sadly LE and the military hire people who don't have the right mindset. For a while LE was pushing folks to have a "warrior mindset" but the left and media have seized upon that as having a negative connotation. I agree there is probably a better word than warrior we should use, but I also think we need to do a better job of screening people for "it" during the hiring process. There are lots of folks in a profession of arms who have no business here. But that is all well above my paygrade.

    Along that vein, I worked with a civil service employee who was a retired MSgt when I was in the Air Force. He admitted (and was proud of it) that during the Vietnam war he joined the Air Force because he realized it was the only service where the officers did 99% of the fighting. He worked on F-4's and loved that they sent the pilots and aircrew off to fight while he got to sleep in a real bed and drink a beer at the end of the day.

  5. #55
    Member Trooper224's Avatar
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    The Upham character was a standard war movie trope introduced to provide contrast with the other battle hardened characters in the cast. He's thrust into a situation completely outside his lane. Is he a coward? That's really an over simplification of the character. Naive and totally unprepared, but a coward? Not really. He doesn't shoot the German to salvage his reputation, because no one saw him fail to act, which caused the death of a fellow soldier. This is undoubtedly a cowardly act. However, when he encounters the German soldier he talked the Captain into releasing, he's slapped in the face with his own naivete and then realizes war makes monsters of us all, through necessity.
    We may lose or we may win, but we will never be hear again.......

  6. #56
    Member EMC's Avatar
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    Thread reminds me of this scene. [emoji1]

  7. #57
    Member Trooper224's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
    Agreed. Sadly LE and the military hire people who don't have the right mindset. For a while LE was pushing folks to have a "warrior mindset" but the left and media have seized upon that as having a negative connotation. I agree there is probably a better word than warrior we should use, but I also think we need to do a better job of screening people for "it" during the hiring process. There are lots of folks in a profession of arms who have no business here. But that is all well above my paygrade.

    Along that vein, I worked with a civil service employee who was a retired MSgt when I was in the Air Force. He admitted (and was proud of it) that during the Vietnam war he joined the Air Force because he realized it was the only service where the officers did 99% of the fighting. He worked on F-4's and loved that they sent the pilots and aircrew off to fight while he got to sleep in a real bed and drink a beer at the end of the day.
    In the beginning there was nothing wrong with that. The whole point of the "Warrior Mindset" was to foster the spirit of persiverence. Pushing though adversity and prevailing. Standing up and winning even if you felt like giving up. Admittedly, that has become a bit warped to the point where many officers have the mentality of an occupying army.

    Personally, I found that military service was no predictor of success as an LEO. Military service doesn't impress me. I've done it as millions have, so I know full well seventy five percent of the people in uniform are generally shit bags. I had to tell more than one rookie just out of the service, "in your last job you just had to kill everyone dressed differently than you, this job's a little more complicated. "

    What you need are good people with developed critical thinking skills and the ability to think independently on their feet. The military isn't a steady predictor of that. If anything, I think the profession may need more country boys than servicemen. Being a state agency, my old department recruited from all over the state and country. Those raised in rural areas always seemed to be able to think on their feet more and needed far less hand holding than their city bred counterparts. The fact that firearms weren't foreign to them was also a pluse.
    We may lose or we may win, but we will never be hear again.......

  8. #58
    Brass Rat Borderland's Avatar
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    What you need are good people with developed critical thinking skills and the ability to think independently on their feet. The military isn't a steady predictor of that.
    I had a few friends that reenlisted. It seemed to me that having a job where there was always someone around to give you some direction was a motivator for choosing the military as a career, at least for enlisted people. I never fit the mold so I did one 4 year enlistment and bolted.
    In the P-F basket of deplorables.

  9. #59
    Unreconstructed Moylan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
    The Upham character was a standard war movie trope introduced to provide contrast with the other battle hardened characters in the cast. He's thrust into a situation completely outside his lane. Is he a coward? That's really an over simplification of the character. Naive and totally unprepared, but a coward? Not really. He doesn't shoot the German to salvage his reputation, because no one saw him fail to act, which caused the death of a fellow soldier. This is undoubtedly a cowardly act. However, when he encounters the German soldier he talked the Captain into releasing, he's slapped in the face with his own naivete and then realizes war makes monsters of us all, through necessity.
    That's interesting. I always thought it was the same guy who the team released, who stabbed the American while the coward cowered, and who the coward eventually shot. But then I only saw the movie once, and that was back when it first came out in theaters. So I guess I've been remembering it wrong. That completely undermines the reason I thought the coward murdered the guy, though.
    O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason.

  10. #60
    Pickle boy snow white's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moylan View Post
    That's interesting. I always thought it was the same guy who the team released, who stabbed the American while the coward cowered, and who the coward eventually shot. But then I only saw the movie once, and that was back when it first came out in theaters. So I guess I've been remembering it wrong. That completely undermines the reason I thought the coward murdered the guy, though.
    I'm pretty shure it is the same guy who stabbed the us soldier. I just re-watched it like two or three months ago so its relatively fresh in my mind.
    Come, mother, come! For terror is thy name, death is in thy breath, and every shaking step destroys a world for e'er. Thou 'time', the all-destroyer! Come, O mother, come!

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