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Thread: Draw stroke feedback

  1. #1
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    Draw stroke feedback

    Here’s a video I recorded last month of some dry fire at a 1.3 sec par time from the PHLster enigma. I’m just looking for feedback regarding what I can be doing better.

    Watching the video, I think I’m reholstering too fast. I’ve got a bad habit of watching myself reholster on video instead of looking the gun into the holster, I’m not sure if I’m trying to make sure I’m bowing my hips forward enough or what, because it isn’t something I’ve noticed myself ignoring when there isn’t a camera present. Then again, if there isn’t a camera I might just not be seeing myself not looking the gun into the holster. https://imgur.com/a/ipMk6xO

  2. #2
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    I'm not the fastest guy around, so hopefully someone genuinely quick can offer some guidance, but my initial thoughts are:

    1) Do you have a good sight picture when the *shot* breaks?
    2) I agree with you on reholstering. With a striker-fired gun, I prefer to perform that motion slower, with more forward movement of the hips .

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Hstanton1 View Post
    Here’s a video I recorded last month of some dry fire at a 1.3 sec par time from the PHLster enigma. I’m just looking for feedback regarding what I can be doing better.

    Watching the video, I think I’m reholstering too fast. I’ve got a bad habit of watching myself reholster on video instead of looking the gun into the holster, I’m not sure if I’m trying to make sure I’m bowing my hips forward enough or what, because it isn’t something I’ve noticed myself ignoring when there isn’t a camera present. Then again, if there isn’t a camera I might just not be seeing myself not looking the gun into the holster. https://imgur.com/a/ipMk6xO
    It looks like you are losing some time on the reaction to the beep. The beep is about 0.3s long, if you are reacting to the start of the beep your hands should start moving at about the 0.2s mark. Instead it looks like they don't start moving until about a tenth of a second after the beep is done.

    It sounds like the shot is breaking while the gun is still moving on its way to full extension. Not to relitigate any press-out arguments but IMO if the gun is still moving when the shot breaks that is not conducive to consistency.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Eyesquared View Post
    It sounds like the shot is breaking while the gun is still moving on its way to full extension. Not to relitigate any press-out arguments but IMO if the gun is still moving when the shot breaks that is not conducive to consistency.
    I've just switched to AIWB so I'm trying to build a new draw from scratch and obviously using PF as my main resource for the time being. I just came across this video yesterday, with Gabe White demoing a few draw variations. At 1:37 and 2:16, he clearly breaks the shot well before full extension. These are draws to lower A zone hits. When he's shooting at the upper A zone, he reaches full extension and usually pauses for a brief moment to verify sight alignment before shooting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQqg...ature=youtu.be

    I'm not sure what this means to me as I work on my draw, but what I've decided for the time being is that I'm not nearly solid enough on my draw consistency or index to do a lower A zone shot at 7 yards until I hit full extension and can do a little sight verification. So I agree with your point above, for me, for now. But it does seem like, aspirationally, we can achieve sufficient consistency when firing before full extension, and I'm keeping that in mind as a mid-to-long range training goal.
    O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Moylan View Post
    I've just switched to AIWB so I'm trying to build a new draw from scratch and obviously using PF as my main resource for the time being. I just came across this video yesterday, with Gabe White demoing a few draw variations. At 1:37 and 2:16, he clearly breaks the shot well before full extension. These are draws to lower A zone hits. When he's shooting at the upper A zone, he reaches full extension and usually pauses for a brief moment to verify sight alignment before shooting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQqg...ature=youtu.be

    I'm not sure what this means to me as I work on my draw, but what I've decided for the time being is that I'm not nearly solid enough on my draw consistency or index to do a lower A zone shot at 7 yards until I hit full extension and can do a little sight verification. So I agree with your point above, for me, for now. But it does seem like, aspirationally, we can achieve sufficient consistency when firing before full extension, and I'm keeping that in mind as a mid-to-long range training goal.
    That is a fair point but I will say that if the par time is set at 1.3s it should not be necessary to round the corners in that manner. At 0.7s I think it makes more sense.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark D View Post
    I'm not the fastest guy around, so hopefully someone genuinely quick can offer some guidance, but my initial thoughts are:

    1) Do you have a good sight picture when the *shot* breaks?
    2) I agree with you on reholstering. With a striker-fired gun, I prefer to perform that motion slower, with more forward movement of the hips .
    I do have a sight picture when the shot breaks, a refined enough sight picture for an A zone at 7 yards at least.

    Yeah, I use long holsters with wedges and a striker control device, but slowing down and bowing my hips more is going to be a super important part of my dry fire.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyesquared View Post
    That is a fair point but I will say that if the par time is set at 1.3s it should not be necessary to round the corners in that manner. At 0.7s I think it makes more sense.
    If my thinking is wrong here please correct me, but my thought process is that when drawing with the intent to fire immediately, I should generally be trying to take slack out of the trigger and refine my sight picture as much as necessary for the given target. At my current skill level, 1.3 seconds or 1.2 seconds is how long it takes me to break the shot on an A zone at 7 yards.

    My goal is to get down to .7 for sure, but I don’t see the benefit in practicing one way for one par time and another way for a different par time. I’m trying this method based on watching videos from Gabe White, Ernest Langdon, and Scott Jedlinski, all have talked about breaking the shot as your arms come to full extension, or at least that’s what I got from what I’ve watched. Never trained with any of them so I can’t say if I’m missing context there.

    Again, I’m pretty new to this so correct me if I’m off base here.

    Also, I totally agree that I’m losing time on the beep. I need to spend some time just clearing my garment and getting a grip on a .5 par time or something

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Hstanton1 View Post
    If my thinking is wrong here please correct me, but my thought process is that when drawing with the intent to fire immediately, I should generally be trying to take slack out of the trigger and refine my sight picture as much as necessary for the given target. At my current skill level, 1.3 seconds or 1.2 seconds is how long it takes me to break the shot on an A zone at 7 yards.

    My goal is to get down to .7 for sure, but I don’t see the benefit in practicing one way for one par time and another way for a different par time. I’m trying this method based on watching videos from Gabe White, Ernest Langdon, and Scott Jedlinski, all have talked about breaking the shot as your arms come to full extension, or at least that’s what I got from what I’ve watched. Never trained with any of them so I can’t say if I’m missing context there.

    Again, I’m pretty new to this so correct me if I’m off base here.

    Also, I totally agree that I’m losing time on the beep. I need to spend some time just clearing my garment and getting a grip on a .5 par time or something
    The reason I mentioned the par times is because in my view, 0.7s is getting pretty darn close to the limit of any human's ability to grip and present the gun, and when you're pushing that fast you may have to accept that you can't wait for the gun to get to full extension. If you are practicing with a 1.3s par time there is a lot of low-hanging fruit that can be taken before you have to take that step.

    Here is the reason why I don't really like pressing the trigger that early in dry-fire. In my opinion, breaking a dry-fire shot as the gun is moving towards the target (not quite at full extension yet) makes it very hard to see what sight movement is coming from your draw-stroke, your grip pressure, and what is being added by the trigger press. This makes it harder to correct inefficiencies and figure out what needs to change to get better results. I generally dry-fire draws with no trigger press, for this reason. I broke live-fire 1s appendix draws to a 7 yard A-zone last year and in my view it is better to get the draw to a sight picture down to 0.8-0.9s and then add in the trigger pressing once the actual motion of the draw is very well established.

    I agree that you should work on clearing the cover garment and getting a grip. I would actually recommend working to a 0.4s par time, IMO it is very achievable with a little work. I would also recommend that in your practice you think about snatching the gun out of the holster as soon as you have a grip.

    All this is just my opinion, I know there are many different schools of thought, and I have no real interest in disputing what various instructors say.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyesquared View Post
    The reason I mentioned the par times is because in my view, 0.7s is getting pretty darn close to the limit of any human's ability to grip and present the gun, and when you're pushing that fast you may have to accept that you can't wait for the gun to get to full extension. If you are practicing with a 1.3s par time there is a lot of low-hanging fruit that can be taken before you have to take that step.

    Here is the reason why I don't really like pressing the trigger that early in dry-fire. In my opinion, breaking a dry-fire shot as the gun is moving towards the target (not quite at full extension yet) makes it very hard to see what sight movement is coming from your draw-stroke, your grip pressure, and what is being added by the trigger press. This makes it harder to correct inefficiencies and figure out what needs to change to get better results. I generally dry-fire draws with no trigger press, for this reason. I broke live-fire 1s appendix draws to a 7 yard A-zone last year and in my view it is better to get the draw to a sight picture down to 0.8-0.9s and then add in the trigger pressing once the actual motion of the draw is very well established.

    I agree that you should work on clearing the cover garment and getting a grip. I would actually recommend working to a 0.4s par time, IMO it is very achievable with a little work. I would also recommend that in your practice you think about snatching the gun out of the holster as soon as you have a grip.

    All this is just my opinion, I know there are many different schools of thought, and I have no real interest in disputing what various instructors say.
    No need for dispute, that’s a good explanation and I can definitely see the value in what you’re saying. I don’t think it necessarily contradicts the idea of shooting as you reach full extension either, especially in the context of dry fire.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyesquared View Post
    The reason I mentioned the par times is because in my view, 0.7s is getting pretty darn close to the limit of any human's ability to grip and present the gun, and when you're pushing that fast you may have to accept that you can't wait for the gun to get to full extension. If you are practicing with a 1.3s par time there is a lot of low-hanging fruit that can be taken before you have to take that step.

    Here is the reason why I don't really like pressing the trigger that early in dry-fire. In my opinion, breaking a dry-fire shot as the gun is moving towards the target (not quite at full extension yet) makes it very hard to see what sight movement is coming from your draw-stroke, your grip pressure, and what is being added by the trigger press. This makes it harder to correct inefficiencies and figure out what needs to change to get better results. I generally dry-fire draws with no trigger press, for this reason. I broke live-fire 1s appendix draws to a 7 yard A-zone last year and in my view it is better to get the draw to a sight picture down to 0.8-0.9s and then add in the trigger pressing once the actual motion of the draw is very well established.

    I agree that you should work on clearing the cover garment and getting a grip. I would actually recommend working to a 0.4s par time, IMO it is very achievable with a little work. I would also recommend that in your practice you think about snatching the gun out of the holster as soon as you have a grip.

    All this is just my opinion, I know there are many different schools of thought, and I have no real interest in disputing what various instructors say.
    Are you talking about 0.7s open draw or concealed draw? Because that makes a difference in what we're talking about.
    0.7s concealed draw is tough. 0.7s open draw isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hstanton1 View Post
    No need for dispute, that’s a good explanation and I can definitely see the value in what you’re saying. I don’t think it necessarily contradicts the idea of shooting as you reach full extension either, especially in the context of dry fire.
    My belief is that there are different types of draws and trigger presses depending on what kind of distance and target you're shooting. Most of my shots are as I'm coming out to full extension. From an open holster that can be 0.70-0.75 to extension with a flash sight picture.



    If I want to get into the 0.5s open then it winds up being a little bit of point shooting before extension.





    But that's with a manual safety gun with the safety engaged in the holster.

    With something like a Glock, I can get those kinds of speeds from gaming concealment at just extension breaking trigger with acceptable flash sight picture and accuracy.



    So I'd say you can shoot before extension if you had to (kind of like shooting from retention or hip), but you can shoot pretty quickly at extension if you're efficient.

    @Hstanton1 I thought it was a pretty solid draw you had. Just keep woodshedding it for smoothness and efficiency. I liked the mechanics.

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