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Thread: Barrel/slide length in relation to recoil characteristics

  1. #71
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noah View Post
    Are you familiar with the Sage Dynamics Cadence drills? Gun in hand, sights on target, 7 rounds. Different par times for a reduced A zone at 3, 5, and 7 yards. It is an isolation drill which would measure the factors being discussed.
    I suppose one thing I'm unclear of here is what the factors being discussed are. Which is not an indictment of criticism of anyone's posts here. We just seem a bit all over the place.

    Our original discussion is the concept of barrel/slide length and recoil characteristics to shooting at speed. But we've drifted discussing grip strength, overall weapon grip, etc. Conceptually, we recognize that recoil characteristics and sight picture are tightly correlated. So how one sees (or doesn't) the sights plays a role on how fast they can shoot accurately.

    Just to get clear we've drifted a bit over to the realm of what factors are deciding the difference between "cyclic" and "actually hitting but at the highest speed you can". And it seems the general conclusion is slide length isn't likely to play a major role, relative to grip, grip strength, arm/wrist, etc, correct?

    If that is correct - then can folks give a brief run down of the variants/variables they have examined using timing drills to evaluate them? Definitely putting this on my list to work on this year. I have not been happy with the consistency of my grip and recoil control. When it's on it's on, when it's off it's off. And a good list of variables to experiment with, would give me a place to start.

    Thanks to @Sig_Fiend for linking to Burkett's timing drills. I'm digging into his discussion on stance too.

  2. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Noah View Post
    Are you familiar with the Sage Dynamics Cadence drills? Gun in hand, sights on target, 7 rounds. Different par times for a reduced A zone at 3, 5, and 7 yards. It is an isolation drill which would measure the factors being discussed.
    Just checked and I did see Aaron's video of those drills awhile back. That looks like it could work well. Here's another simple method to incorporate cadence. Just don't be afraid to push yourself until "the wheels fall off", then dial it back. That could mean going faster than you're used to, letting your group size get larger, etc.

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  3. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan0354 View Post
    People ask, I answer. Tell them to stop calling me out. I will answer if anyone addresses me.

    Why am I not qualify? Tell me. You even read what I said? It's very simple. You might be right, you might win the lawsuit. BUT WHO IS GOING TO PAY for your defense? SIMPLE QUESTION.
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  4. #74
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    @RevolverRob to be clear, I brought up the Sage drill because objective performance on that drill would be a way to gather data on how slide characteristics affect shooting.

  5. #75
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    @Alan0354 this is a tech forum. Keep it technical and on topic.
    Extraneous posts culled. I will now reopen the thread, keep it on topic and be familiar with PF's rules and Code of Conduct. Thanks to those that reported the thread.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  6. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Extraneous posts culled.
    Thanks. This is a good thread.

  7. #77
    Some data derived from the cheap and dirty expedient of motion tracking software and an Apple Watch Series 6, shooting three different HK VP9 pistols with various barrel and slide lengths.

    Notes: Each pistol was shot offhand (modified Weaver) with full, 20-round mags and 1 in the chamber, for five shots at 10 yards at a Gunsite option target, splits of around 0.25 sec. The VP9 and VP9-PMM comp pistols are fitted with RMR (1.2 ounces) and the VP9L has an SRO (0.4 ounces heavier optic). All 5-shot readings were repeated 4 times with each pistol, total of 20 rounds per pistol. (Holes in the ocular zone were from 25-yard headshot drills I conducted after the test). Edited to note: The SF X300 was removed from the compensated pistol for the test, and then re-mounted for my headshot drills after.

    Ammo is S&B 124 grain ball, which is a warm, but not +P level round. This ammo easily holds a 10-ring on an FBI IP1 with a 5-shot group off a bag at 25 yds from each of these pistols, as shown.

    Data was collected with the accelerometer of an Apple Watch (series 6) attached to the trigger hand wrist with an Apple sport band.

    So, what we are seeing is the effect of firing on the motion of the watch, translated through the body on each shot.

    The complication with interpreting X, Y and Z is that these are referent to the position of the watch in space- not the pistol. Z is normal to the watch body, the position of which was consistent for this specific test as the same aiming point (10 yard target) and hold was used for each 5-shot group from each pistol.

    The X axis is yellow, the Y axis is red, and the Z-axis is blue. The green axis is the gravity field. The image, selected from the animation of one of the recoil cycles, shows the orientation of the watch on the right wrist, with the pistol at maximum vertical recoil. In reality the total recoil is dimensionally small. I can’t load the animation here, but it is quite interesting to look at. You can track the movement on each shot quite accurately.

    I feel that due to all of these variables, the value of the data lies exclusively in the relative comparison of each pistol with all conditions being as much the same as possible (grip pressure, etc.), and while the numbers may be of interest, they are by no means definitive.

    The obvious result is that overall acceleration of the standard length uncompensated pistol is greater than either the compensated and long slide pistols, which have the same overall (and less) acceleration on the shot, but there are, as one might expect, differences in the acceleration vector components of the comped pistol vs long slide (which correlates to subjective observations while shooting them).

    In subjective terms, the long slide does seem to shoot “smoothly” while the comped pistol shoots “flatter but snappier”... if that makes any kind of sense. And we need to consider the acoustic component of the comped pistol on the subjective perception as well- the long slide produces a less sharp report.

    (If I do this again I’ll mount a spare watch body to the bottom of the mag with pedal tape to get a more direct reading off the pistol itself.)
    Attached Images Attached Images     
    Last edited by Archer1440; 03-01-2021 at 08:18 PM.

  8. #78
    Thanks for testing and sharing your results and objective numbers. I didn't think about it before but the Mantis in live fire would do what you are thinking of by attaching the apple watch to the gun and it is designed for it. I have the older version but the newer X10 I think gives more complete data in live fire. I only use mine for dry fire but it is worth a look.

  9. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by octagon View Post
    Thanks for testing and sharing your results and objective numbers. I didn't think about it before but the Mantis in live fire would do what you are thinking of by attaching the apple watch to the gun and it is designed for it. I have the older version but the newer X10 I think gives more complete data in live fire. I only use mine for dry fire but it is worth a look.
    Yes, that’s what they advertise. I worked with what I have handy. Hopefully someone with a Mantis will weigh in with data as well.

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