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Thread: What not to do in a shoot house

  1. #11
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    What I find amusing is that kind of folks is usually not very fond of competition

  2. #12
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    The CSM owns it, which is nice in this day and age,

    In the video there's guys observing on the catwalk, so I'm surprised the team in the shoot house isn't receiving immediate feedback from above.

  3. #13
    Member M1Garand's Avatar
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    I have been out of the loop for 21 years but looks like the 10th MT has not improved any since 1997 when they shot me during a MOUT at JRTC while I was the OC for the lead fire team moving to the next BLDG. Video is to big to post, has lost sound and is poor quality being filmed with 1st gen NV.
    Socialism is control masquerading as compassion

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totem Polar View Post
    Singleton CQB, per other discussion, suddenly doesnít seem so bad. I guess itís all a matter of perspective.
    No. This is just CQB done wrong. A little bit of flagging / muzzling is inevitable but there is nothing inadvertent in this video.

    Rather, this is a good example of why some of the criticisms in the other thread brief well but are not valid in actual application.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1Garand View Post
    I have been out of the loop for 21 years but looks like the 10th MT has not improved any since 1997 when they shot me during a MOUT at JRTC while I was the OC for the lead fire team moving to the next BLDG. Video is to big to post, has lost sound and is poor quality being filmed with 1st gen NV.
    Not unheard of. I had a co-worker who was shot in the calf doing MOUT training in the early 1990s.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheby View Post
    What I find amusing is that kind of folks is usually not very fond of competition
    Not a valid comparison. The conventional military is, for the most part a closed eco-system; solo competition vs team based movement is apples to oranges.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Not unheard of. I had a co-worker who was shot in the calf doing MOUT training in the early 1990s.
    It happens. But using what I call the new guy response we have. Unit 1 executes the scenario, new guy says wow that went smooth, leader says not bad but we need to work on this, this and this. VS Unit 2 executes the scenario, new guy says what happened - what did we do, leader says good job that's 2 in a row we have not shot anyone. I think the unit in the video is closer to unit 2 than to unit 1
    Socialism is control masquerading as compassion

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Totem Polar View Post
    Singleton CQB, per other discussion, suddenly doesnít seem so bad. I guess itís all a matter of perspective.
    Could younpojnt me to that one? My search fu is weak and I am curious. On this vid: I was tensed up like in a horror move when the music indicating the slasher is about to strike starts playing. I was just waiting for one of those kids to catch round. I'd say somebody (plural) might be getting relieved soon.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWM11B View Post
    Could younpojnt me to that one? My search fu is weak and I am curious. On this vid: I was tensed up like in a horror move when the music indicating the slasher is about to strike starts playing. I was just waiting for one of those kids to catch round. I'd say somebody (plural) might be getting relieved soon.
    I think this is the thread Totem is referring to.

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....82#post1186682
    Seriously guys, are we not doing 'phrasing' anymore?

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1Garand View Post
    I have been out of the loop for 21 years but looks like the 10th MT has not improved any since 1997 when they shot me during a MOUT at JRTC while I was the OC for the lead fire team moving to the next BLDG. Video is to big to post, has lost sound and is poor quality being filmed with 1st gen NV.
    I have friends in the 10th Mountain's triple deuce (Not the unit in the video, but close from what I understand), but even disregarding that I feel compelled to make a very clear point.

    Literally thousands of combat arms Soldiers rotate through that division and every other Combat arms division every year, with a typical bare minimum of live fire training every 90 days or so. With the simple size, scale, and lowest-common-denominator, Soldiers-gonna-Soldier fuckery involved it is basically inevitable that a few live fire accidents will occur. It's simply impossible to mitigate risk entirely for a live fire training event and still issue live ammo.

    Honestly I wish like hell that people (especially field grade Commanders) realized there's always risk whenever we're genuinely training for war, and stop expecting a zero-defect training environment.
    Mistakes made in training that caused no damage or injury should simply be the teachable moments they are. Yes, it's disappointing that the supervising NCO's didn't yell at that guy the first time he flagged his buddy, it's disappointing that they didn't endex immediately on the second violation as I would have done, but I bet like fucking hell that training has occurred since this video was found and it's a non-issue with that particular element now.

    As an NCO I see this video as a massive training opportunity. I'm going to show it to all of my own joes without any context and ask them what went well and what went wrong. The Soldiers in that video clearly did alright with the rest of the process aside from the lots and lots and lots of muzzling their buddies. Nothing else bad happened. That's called a teachable moment and that's exactly why we plan the training, conduct the training, and review the training with an AAR.

    So, consider what it accomplishes to grumble like you're grumbling now. I'm sorry you were injured in training but I'll bet your VA rating reflects it. I bet a lot of those same guys there with you that day (night?) remembered that incident and they took that experience with them in early OIF/OEF. If you have any magical ideas that can guarantee zero ND injuries across an armed forces totaling over 2,000,000 assigned AND still accomplish effective, realistic, meaningful combat training - you have my undivided attention.

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