And Yet Another 320 Lawsuit?

[HCM]

@HCM, I remember you mentioning a P320 discharge incident involving an ICE employee in one of the threads we have here. Is this the incident you were referring to?

No, the one I mentioned which is also listed in the July 2020 Lawsuit involved an ICE Agent in NYC - it occurred during transition training from the P229 to the 320. The NYC incident was witnessed and was 100% ND /finger on the trigger.

[Chain]

The common denominator to me is the P320. I think the MPX or "Sig is bad" is a strawman, every company can make a turd. The difference is how far will a company to claim their turd isn't a turd. In this case, Sig has tried really hard and continues to fail.

365 had it's share of growing pains too.

[Suvorov]

I am not at all familiar with the inner workings of the P320 trigger and striker but I have heard tails....

Can someone who is knowledgeable tell me how a loaded P320 with what I understand is a striker under tension is safer than a P228 or Beretta 92 in single action mode? Does the P320 have something analogous to a firing pin safety/block?

[Joe in PNG]

I am not at all familiar with the inner workings of the P320 trigger and striker but I have heard tails....

Can someone who is knowledgeable tell me how a loaded P320 with what I understand is a striker under tension is safer than a P228 or Beretta 92 in single action mode? Does the P320 have something analogous to a firing pin safety/block?

Or any of the old Browning/ FN SFA guns like the 1910?

[HCM]

Mods, please move/merge/delete accordingly.

I haven't seen this one mentioned yet in the various P320 lawsuit threads. But some of those threads are pretty long with various amounts of links, data, info, opinions.

Anyway here's the latest:

https://www.military.com/daily-news/...ge-wounds.html

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

Original sources are best, here is the actual complaint:

https://www.smbb.com/wp-content/uplo...d-02-17-21.pdf

It is largely a copy and paste from the July 2020 lawsuit right down to using a cutaway diagram of an HK VP9 misrepresented as a P320. They also list ND’s involving NON P320 pistols such as the ND death of a PA State Trooper which occurred during PSP’s transition from Glock 21s to SIG P227s (a DA/SA pistol).

The current suit alleges the plaintiff shot himself while drawing the pistol from a holster.

There is no allegation the gun was dropped, bumped etc.

Given the prevalence of NDs which occur with all types of pistols when drawing and re-holstering I want to see more facts before I accept the plaintiffs version of events.

[BWT]

The common denominator to me is the P320. I think the MPX or "Sig is bad" is a strawman, every company can make a turd. The difference is how far will a company to claim their turd isn't a turd. In this case, Sig has tried really hard and continues to fail.

And just to be clear there have been discussions here on P-F about the safety of the VP9, the FN509, and the PPQ/PPx variants. Each of them has been shown to drop the striker in a variety of scenarios, but none of them fire when that happens.

So far it seems the only striker variant guns that appear to be fully drop safe and don't drop the striker when hit are Glock and M&P. Both of those designs can be made less safe with aftermarket parts. But in stock form they're both superior designs.

These issues will continue to pop up with Sig, because the design is fundamentally flawed with respect to the striker design in the P320. Until Sig redesigns the entire mechanism (not happening) the P320 will be a marginally safe weapon from a mechanical standpoint.

I largely agree.

But, I do also believe Sig’s level of QC hasn’t kept up with their design team.

They’re doing amazing things, but that is a concern of mine with them.

[Alan0354]

Is Sig going down hill? I was out of gun scene for a long time, Sig was good before, but sounds like they are getting worst. I was on and off looking at the 2022 DA/SA, maybe I should forget that all together.

With the new CAD design and simulations, CSC machining, how can quality be that bad? I thought all guns are much more reliable and better today than my days long time ago.

[olstyn]

I was on and off looking at the 2022 DA/SA, maybe I should forget that all together.

SIG's spotty QA aside, that gun received a fair amount of praise here on p-f.com a few years back as one of the better inexpensive DA/SA options out there.

[HCM]

Is Sig going down hill? I was out of gun scene for a long time, Sig was good before, but sounds like they are getting worst. I was on and off looking at the 2022 DA/SA, maybe I should forget that all together.

With the new CAD design and simulations, CSC machining, how can quality be that bad? I thought all guns are much more reliable and better today than my days long time ago.

No. Their QA/QC is as good as it has been at the US branch.

SIG has had two major issues, both related to engineering and vetting new designs:

The first was when SIG tried to find cheaper ways to make their traditional products to compete with polymer frame guns. For example trying to make parts designed as forged parts via cheaper processes such as MIM. Nothing wrong with MIM parts designed to be MIM- HKs are full of great MIM.

This lead into the second issue - SIG has been doing sone of the most innovative engineering in the industry, however, they have been pushing designs out the door without them being fully vetted or “de-bugged.” This has plagued most of SIG’s newer designs including the P320, P365 and the MPX SMG/PCC.

Re: the SP2022 -it’s one of SIGs most vetted products and best values. I have one and would not hesitate to buy another. The SP 2022 has been well vetted via foreign police sales with hundreds of thousands in service in Europe.

[HCM]

I largely agree.

But, I do also believe Sig’s level of QC hasn’t kept up with their design team.

They’re doing amazing things, but that is a concern of mine with them.

I think you’re on the right track but the issue isn’t the level of QC. Rather it’s post design vetting / debugging/ beta testing process.

Essentially using end users as beta testers.