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Thread: And Yet Another 320 Lawsuit?

  1. #121
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by octagon View Post
    Thanks for the research sources. I'll check them out for added perspective on an interesting topic. Not that either are looking to consider it but I wonder if there has been a properly done study of the ultimate safe carry method: Empty chamber. A study would need to consider the risk of handling the gun to chamber a round and it being done under stress as well as risk of being too slow or difficult( maybe forgotten) when under fired and thus injured or killed. It would be interesting to see such a study. Maybe Israeli organization has done something similar in the earlier days.
    Empty chamber isn't "the ultimate safety method" for a few reasons.

    1) Practitioners often forget, especially under stress, what condition the weapon is in. I'm sure you've seen robbers who've ejected a round when they pulled and announced the robbery. Why? Because they just racked it when they started to go into the store and forgot they did it or are habituated to racking a round with each presentation. If you pull and fire or don't fire, you now have a chambered round unless you fiddle-fuck with the gun prior to holstering, unlikely under stress. Now they are holstering/pocketing/waistbanding a hot gun they aren't used to which leads to #2:

    2) "Unloaded guns" encourage a different level of handling, a less safe level, among many people. From Mark Twain talking about how dangerous it is to have an unloaded musket in the house to untold "...but it wasn't loaded" accidents I've personally worked, I think this mindset change offsets risk reduction. Side note: Also why I advocate against "treat all guns as loaded" or "all guns are always loaded" teaching, since it implies there are two ways to handle a gun, loaded guns vs unloaded guns.

    3) I've worked cases were good guys got the gun drawn but couldn't get it chambered.

    If one really needs to carry "empty chamber", then a revolver is the answer. As long as you know if your cylinder rotates clockwise or anti-clockwise, you can leave the chamber that the hammer falls on with the first trigger pull empty. It costs you one round and you get one dry fire before a live bang, so you'd have to unintentionally pull the trigger twice to get unwanted noise.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  2. #122
    Member jd950's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    Excellent posts! BTW, if folks are interested in ergonomics of design leading to errors, the classic is:

    The Design of Everyday Things: Revised and Expanded Edition Paperback – Illustrated, November 5, 2013
    by Don Norman (Author)

    Specifically for firearms:

    Human Factors Issues in Handgun Safety and Forensics
    by Hal W. Hendrick , Paul Paradis, et al. | Nov 26, 2007
    I agree. Dr. Norman is a really interesting guy with great perspectives on the interaction between cognitive science and engineering/design.

    A couple quotes from him worth thinking about:

    “Most industrial accidents are caused by human error: estimates range between 75 and 95 percent. How is it that so many people are so incompetent? Answer: They aren’t. It’s a design problem.”

    “The idea that a person is at fault when something goes wrong is deeply entrenched in society. That’s why we blame others and even ourselves. Unfortunately, the idea that a person is at fault is imbedded in the legal system. When major accidents occur, official courts of inquiry are set up to assess the blame. More and more often the blame is attributed to “human error.” The person involved can be fined, punished, or fired. Maybe training procedures are revised. The law rests comfortably. But in my experience, human error usually is a result of poor design: it should be called system error. Humans err continually; it is an intrinsic part of our nature. System design should take this into account. Pinning the blame on the person may be a comfortable way to proceed, but why was the system ever designed so that a single act by a single person could cause calamity? Worse, blaming the person without fixing the root, underlying cause does not fix the problem: the same error is likely to be repeated by someone else.”

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    The more you handle guns, the more likely you are to experience those kinds of issues.

    Safety with a firearm has nothing to do with your background, education, training resume, status in society, or intellect.

    Safety with a firearm is a process.

    At any given moment someone is either demonstrating disciplined adherence to the primary rules of firearms safety, or they are not. At any given moment someone is either doing the safest, sanest thing possible with a deadly weapon, or they are not.

    The instant someone strays from disciplined adherence to the principles of safely handling a firearm, that person is dangerous. That person is fractions of a second away from experiencing an unintentional discharge of a firearm and the potential consequences that go with it.

    It doesn't matter what they were doing even three seconds ago. It doesn't matter what their job is, what level of training they have, how much money they make, what their IQ is, how big their youtube channel is, how many followers they have on Instagram, how many years service they have in an elite unit, how many championships they've won...the instant they stop obeying the process of safe handling practices they become a lethal menace to themselves and others.

    Every single person who handles a firearm will, at some point, handle one negligently. The more you handle firearms the higher your risk of a bad outcome becomes.

    Take reholstering as an example. In a typical year I will reholster a loaded handgun thousands of times. I can guarantee that in at least some of those instances I will make a mistake or experience something unexpected like a foreign object ending up in my holster. That's why I refuse to carry a handgun that doesn't give me some last ditch mechanical method of neutralizing the firing mechanism when I put the gun back in the holster.

    There is actually an entire field of academic study centered on the propensity for error among human beings. Human beings commit far more errors than they can possibly keep account of in their daily activities. In some fields the consequences of human error are so severe that mitigation strategies must be used. Take surgery as an example. If you go in to have surgery on a limb, odds are that prior to your surgery a highly educated medical professional with years of experience is going to hand you a marker and ask you to mark the limb that is to be operated on. They will likely ask you for your name, your identifying information, and for what you are there to have done even though all of that is on a chart right in front of them.

    This practice resulted from numerous instances where highly trained, highly experienced medical professionals performed the wrong procedures on the wrong limbs and even on the wrong patients.

    In aviation, surgery, nuclear power, critical incident response in IT, and practically any other human endeavor you can name where an error brings a high likelihood of expensive and/or dangerous consequences, processes have been developed to attempt to minimize the occurrences of error and mitigate their ability to produce a negative outcome.

    The point of training is to breed disciplined adherence to those processes even under extreme stress. Commercial and military aviators spend time every year in simulators where highly experienced aviators throw problems at them that they must resolve to keep their ratings to fly. Nuclear reactor operators go through the same process every year as well. All of this is designed to habituate disciplined adherence to a process of problem solving and safety even under extreme stress.

    Safety with a firearm, like safety with a nuclear reactor or an aircraft, is not a passive process. Properly done, it is an active process where the person holding the firearm is making the safest, sanest decision they can under the circumstances they are facing at that moment. And when the circumstances change they change their behavior accordingly. A muzzle direction that is safe right now might not be safe in a second and a half...and the person holding the firearm needs to be sufficiently aware of what is happening to recognize that and do something about where their muzzle is oriented.

    No human being will do that perfectly at all times. This is why we layer safety practices. The four primary rules of firearms safety layer on top of one another to create as much distance between human frailties and bad outcomes.

    Sane engineering can add more layers between a mistake and a bad outcome because as effective as observance of the four primary rules of firearms safety is, no human being alive observes all of them all the time.

    Clearing a Glock before taking it apart once isn't difficult. Ensuring that you have properly performed the steps necessary to safely clear the gun ten thousand times is another thing altogether. Ensuring that a police force of 40,000 people properly observes that process at least twice a year...well, you can see how the odds start to stack up on that.

    Everyone understands how a moment or two of looking at a text while on the interstate piloting a minimum of 1.5 tons of steel going 75 MPH can result in someone being maimed or killed...and yet I'd wager you would have a dickens of a time finding a person who has a cell phone that never looked at a text under those circumstances. You might find picking winning lotto numbers or the next stock to jump 3,000% easier to do. Everyone also understands that the more miles you drive, the more likely you are to experience an accident.

    Lethal mistakes with firearms are faster and easier than with vehicles. A small movement of the upper body while holding a handgun can sweep an entire line of people and if a bullet leaves that muzzle nobody can see it and get out of the way in time.

    If we have a proper understanding of the risks, we can take measures to mitigate them. But that doesn't happen if we don't honestly assess ourselves, our equipment, and our circumstances.
    Awesome post! All of this is why, absent specific facts, when considering an unintentional discharge I default to it being an Negligent (i.e. operator error) Discharge until it is proven to be an Accidental (mechanical) Discharge. Even with a design like the 320 that has a history of actual AD’s in a earlier iteration like P320s or Glocks.

    I’m confident current iterations of the Glock are drop safe, at least in factory configuration. But glock was on the market for several years, and had several ADs before they failed the drop test portion of the DEA pistol trials in the early 1990s. The DEA test failure was what finally spurred glock to conduct the first “it’s an upgrade, not a recall” swapping out the black internals for the new, drop safe, nickel plated internals. The SCD is a great addition to the Glock but there are millions of Glocks out there that will never be used with an SCD.

    Since Glenn Meyer mentioned design principles and Affordance, I wonder how much the choice to require pulling the trigger to disassemble the Glock was engineering necessity and how much was Gaston Glock not knowing what he didn’t know about human factors because he had never designed a firearm before.

  4. #124
    Member jd950's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Awesome post! All of this is why, absent specific facts, when considering an unintentional discharge I default to it being an Negligent (i.e. operator error) Discharge until it is proven to be an Accidental (mechanical) Discharge. Even with a design like the 320 that has a history of actual AD’s in a earlier iteration like P320s or Glocks.

    I’m confident current iterations of the Glock are drop safe, at least in factory configuration. But glock was on the market for several years, and had several ADs before they failed the drop test portion of the DEA pistol trials in the early 1990s. The DEA test failure was what finally spurred glock to conduct the first “it’s an upgrade, not a recall” swapping out the black internals for the new, drop safe, nickel plated internals. The SCD is a great addition to the Glock but there are millions of Glocks out there that will never be used with an SCD.

    Since Glenn Meyer mentioned design principles and Affordance, I wonder how much the choice to require pulling the trigger to disassemble the Glock was engineering necessity and how much was Gaston Glock not knowing what he didn’t know about human factors because he had never designed a firearm before.
    Just a guess and an uninformed one at that, but that guess is that it was primarily based on the goals of simple design, few parts and low price, as requested by the army at the time. My understanding is that "experienced" firearms designers were hired to do design the gun. I have often wondered what their backgrounds were. Not meant as a slur, just curious.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Empty chamber isn't "the ultimate safety method" for a few reasons.

    1) Practitioners often forget, especially under stress, what condition the weapon is in. I'm sure you've seen robbers who've ejected a round when they pulled and announced the robbery. Why? Because they just racked it when they started to go into the store and forgot they did it or are habituated to racking a round with each presentation. If you pull and fire or don't fire, you now have a chambered round unless you fiddle-fuck with the gun prior to holstering, unlikely under stress. Now they are holstering/pocketing/waistbanding a hot gun they aren't used to which leads to #2:

    2) "Unloaded guns" encourage a different level of handling, a less safe level, among many people. From Mark Twain talking about how dangerous it is to have an unloaded musket in the house to untold "...but it wasn't loaded" accidents I've personally worked, I think this mindset change offsets risk reduction. Side note: Also why I advocate against "treat all guns as loaded" or "all guns are always loaded" teaching, since it implies there are two ways to handle a gun, loaded guns vs unloaded guns.

    3) I've worked cases were good guys got the gun drawn but couldn't get it chambered.

    If one really needs to carry "empty chamber", then a revolver is the answer. As long as you know if your cylinder rotates clockwise or anti-clockwise, you can leave the chamber that the hammer falls on with the first trigger pull empty. It costs you one round and you get one dry fire before a live bang, so you'd have to unintentionally pull the trigger twice to get unwanted noise.
    I meant that mainly in jest as safety taken to an extreme may make it safe for even the intended target...thus the badguy that needs to be shot. I didn't want to go "full retard" (future generations please don't cancel me for quoting a movie character who also wore blackface in the movie I'm quoting him in) and say the safest method is to not carry a gun at all as then you are guaranteed never to shoot yourself but I thought that was too far.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by jd950 View Post
    Just a guess and an uninformed one at that, but that guess is that it was primarily based on the goals of simple design, few parts and low price, as requested by the army at the time. My understanding is that "experienced" firearms designers were hired to do design the gun. I have often wondered what their backgrounds were. Not meant as a slur, just curious.
    You’re right in general but you’re missing my point about context in design.

    There is a difference between the cleanest theoretical design and how guns work and are used in the real world. There is a certain level of institutional knowledge, including knowledge of how guns are actually used, among gun companies and firearms engineers that is simply not present in other mechanical engineers regardless of their talent or skill.

    A perfect example of this is the disastrous British SA80 Service Rifle. It’s not that the engineers who converted the air 18 into the bull pup SA 80 were bad engineers but they had knowledge gaps that came from the fact many of them had never actually used a firearm. They had no context for what they were producing other than what they saw on TV and in movies.

    Contrast that with, Kalashnikov or Eugene Stoner, both of whom had plenty of context from their WWII experiences.

    I don’t recall if Gaston Glock did some conscript time in the Austrian army but as an engineer his primary background was molded plastic curtain rods. That lead to plastic shovels, knives, and eventually a plastic hand Grenade for the Austrian military.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by jd950 View Post
    Just a guess and an uninformed one at that, but that guess is that it was primarily based on the goals of simple design, few parts and low price, as requested by the army at the time. My understanding is that "experienced" firearms designers were hired to do design the gun. I have often wondered what their backgrounds were. Not meant as a slur, just curious.
    I believe Wilhelm Bubits was one of the key engineers behind the Glock and then in the future Steyr handguns the Caracal and BB6 which all have similarities in design.


    On the Glock issue of pulling the trigger to disassemble it doesn't have to be done to any production Glock it is just that it is faster and easier. If you don't want to pull the trigger just lock the slide to the rear (on an empty gun), use a Glock tool or similar and push forward on the striker sleeve then pull down on the slide plate. Then remove the striker assembly and let the slide move forward and off the frame. Then disassemble as usual for field strip. This is basically how the Mossberg MC1 and MC2C work. Just in the Glock case tool-less field stripping and no small parts to lose were more important and easier.

  8. #128
    Member jd950's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    You’re right in general but you’re missing my point about context in design.

    There is a difference between the cleanest theoretical design and how guns work and are used in the real world. There is a certain level of institutional knowledge, including knowledge of how guns are actually used, among gun companies and firearms engineers that is simply not present in other mechanical engineers regardless of their talent or skill.

    A perfect example of this is the disastrous British SA80 Service Rifle. It’s not that the engineers who converted the air 18 into the bull pup SA 80 were bad engineers but they had knowledge gaps that came from the fact many of them had never actually used a firearm. They had no context for what they were producing other than what they saw on TV and in movies.

    Contrast that with, Kalashnikov or Eugene Stoner, both of whom had plenty of context from their WWII experiences.

    I don’t recall if Gaston Glock did some conscript time in the Austrian army but as an engineer his primary background was molded plastic curtain rods. That lead to plastic shovels, knives, and eventually a plastic hand Grenade for the Austrian military.
    No, I think I just wasn't clear. My guess was that persons experienced in the design of firearms designed the Glock 17, subject to the goals of the customer., which is why I would be interested in knowing their background (Steyr, perhaps?) My assumption is that Gaston Glock did not design the gun, since as far as I know, he had no familiarity with the field. I am not even sure if he possesses an engineering degree or in what subset of engineering it might be. I suspect if Glock himself had any relevant experience or training, it would be known. Once, several years ago, I looked up the Glock patent application. It was interesting because many of the statements in it about the novelty of design were either blatant misstatements or indicative of a complete lack of firearms knowledge by the writers. I assume the application was actually written by a patent lawyer, but the factual statements would likely have been supplied or vetted by the client. I probably still have it somewhere.

    ETA: Octagon posted while I was typing. Thanks for the info. I just looked up Wilhelm Bubits. According to Wikipedia (so, who knows) "As a hobby shooter and former police officer, Wilhelm Bubits used his experience and ideas about handguns to advance modern pistol design."
    Last edited by jd950; 02-21-2021 at 06:43 PM.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by jd950 View Post
    No, I think I just wasn't clear. My guess was that persons experienced in the design of firearms designed the Glock 17, subject to the goals of the customer., which is why I would be interested in knowing their background (Steyr, perhaps?) My assumption is that Gaston Glock did not design the gun, since as far as I know, he had no familiarity with the field. I am not even sure if he possesses an engineering degree or in what subset of engineering it might be. I suspect if Glock himself had any relevant experience or training, it would be known. Once, several years ago, I looked up the Glock patent application. It was interesting because many of the statements in it about the novelty of design were either blatant misstatements or indicative of a complete lack of firearms knowledge by the writers. I assume the application was actually written by a patent lawyer, but the factual statements would likely have been supplied or vetted by the client. I probably still have it somewhere.
    Gaston did the initial design and brought in some “firearms” people to refine it. As discussed with MIM certain use of certain materials require one to take the material’s properties into account. Gaston’s Glock’s experience with plastics was integral to the success of the design. As I recall Bubitz was an Austrian Customs Officer and went to Styer after Glock. “Firearms” covers a wide swath of experience. Hunting guns and service rifles are firearms but may or may not translate to service pistols.

  10. #130
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    Speaking from my vast ignorance, I do wonder if trying to cram all the moving bits into a removable FCU is part of the problem.
    One of the problems with more that a few subcompact gun designs is trying to cram all the springs, levers, pins, cams, and other moving bits into a smaller package, which can cause problems. The tighter the space, the more room for tolerance stacking problems.
    The FCU has the appearance of sticking the compressed moving bits from a subcompact gun inside the space of a full sized gun, and thus a potential source of problems.
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