Page 2 of 17 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 162

Thread: And Yet Another 320 Lawsuit?

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by jd950 View Post

    2.My personal belief is that law enforcement and defensive shooters should never have abandoned DA/SA, DAO, DAK and LEM pistols except in very limited circumstances.
    Why hinder the shooter with a bad trigger that makes accuracy harder to achieve and maintain? A good ergonomically placed thumb safety would solve much of the issue.

    Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

  2. #12
    So say that there is nothing wrong with the P320 mechanically, is it time to start looking at the human interface? Maybe a striker fired gun with a trigger pull approaching a 1911 isn’t a good idea from a risk management and liability standpoint. Was it wise to ditch the trigger safety when more and more duty guns are riding in holsters that are wide open above the trigger to accommodate a WML.

    As pointed out above, there is an inherent risk to everything we do including carrying a gun. Everyone has a different place on the sliding scale of safety that they will tolerate for different things. Where should institutions decide to say this is unsafe and we don’t want it. Especially considering that they must account for the lowest common denominator?

    Do these incidents now out pace problems with competing designs today? Where these problems as wide spread when Glock was first being adopted en masse? Is this a training issue that can be corrected in the future?
    Last edited by call_me_ski; 02-19-2021 at 09:20 PM.

  3. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    NW Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by call_me_ski View Post
    So say that there is nothing wrong with the P320 mechanically, is it time to start looking at the human interface? Maybe a striker fired gun with a trigger pull approaching a 1911 isn’t a good idea from a risk management and liability standpoint.
    Makes me think of one of my favorite pistol-forum rants by Ernest Langdon

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....d-consequences

  4. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    NW Florida
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    But, yes, as a class striker fired are not the safest. That does not mean they are unsafe, as "safe" and "unsafe" are not binary states but a sliding scale. It does mean you have less margin of error for things like trigger checks, obstructed holsters, etc.
    It's tough to get folks to see this.

    The hard core striker folks will give you the "this is my safety" stuff, while the adamant manual safety/DA/SA/revolver folks will claim striker fired guns are going to go off on their own at any time.

  5. #15
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Southwest Pennsylvania
    Double action does not necessarily equal safer.

    Some older double action designs - including some well-known, popular designs, ARE capable of accidentally discharging if the gun is dropped. I would worry more about carrying one of these guns than I would most striker fired pistols.

    Having worked with multiple new shooters with hand/wrist issues that hindered their ability to pull a DA trigger, I have gravitated towards striker fired guns and to a lesser extent 1911's.

  6. #16
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Phoenix Metro, AZ
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan0354 View Post
    Maybe I am ignorant, but isn't all strike fired pistol not the safest to carry with a round in the chamber. They are all like half cocked ready to fire? I don't think I would carry a strike fire pistol day in and day out with a round in the chamber. I would find a DA/SA one for that.

    I am sure a lot of people disagree with me on this, but that's just me, I would not put a round in the chamber in my glock 26 all the time. I have no issue putting a round in the chamber with my S&W659 because I can lower the hammer after I load the chamber by putting the safety on and drop the hammer. Then no matter what, it won't discharge accidentally as the hammer is down already.
    I carried a Glock of one variety or caliber for 20+ years on the job. I’m still carrying a 26 or a 19 as a former action guy. I’ve never carried one without a round in the chamber. I never personally saw a round go off in a holster. I know some of the WML Safariland holsters had enough room to wiggle a finger in the holster and you could touch the trigger.

    If you’re worried about it Tom Jones will send you a Gadget almost immediately after you buy it. Now that I’m retired all my Glocks have an SCD in them.

    When I started we carried revolvers. The range masters training us taught us to put our thumbs on the DA revolver trigger because people shot themselves in the leg holstering. The old leather thumb breaks returned to position after the pistol was drawn. It was very possible to catch a thumb break in the trigger guard.
    Just a dog chauffeur that used to hold the dumb end of the leash.

  7. #17
    Site Supporter Sero Sed Serio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Quote Originally Posted by JTQ View Post
    Makes me think of one of my favorite pistol-forum rants by Ernest Langdon

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....d-consequences
    I liked this because I can’t like Ernest’s post again.

    I don’t believe that striker guns are inherently unsafe, nor are DA/SA or DAO guns risk free, but counting on 100% perfection from human operators to ensure the safety of a device that, by its nature, is utilized at some of the most stressful moments in life does not seem conducive to a trouble-free existence.

    I also find myself more and more using a person’s reaction to the concept of the SCD as a litmus test of their understanding of firearms and their application in the broken-nose real world.

  8. #18
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    SC
    I think call a spade a spade.

    We weren’t having these discussions when the M&P’s were all the rage here. Or the H&K VP9 came out. Or the CZ P10 came out.

    Sig releases the P320 and suddenly all striker guns are demonized. Glock’s had an issue in the mid 90’s. We’re almost in the mid 2020’s... which is almost 30 years later. Glocks had their faults. But... LEO’s aren’t shooting themselves and suing Glock left right and center like folks seem to be doing with P320’s.

    Sig had issues with their MPX feeding, released Gen 2 Mags for the MPX, etc.

    The reason I’m bringing this up as Sig’s the common denominator.
    God Bless,

    Brandon

  9. #19
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Gotham Adjacent
    Quote Originally Posted by BWT View Post
    I think call a spade a spade.

    We weren’t having these discussions when the M&P’s were all the rage here. Or the H&K VP9 came out. Or the CZ P10 came out.

    Sig releases the P320 and suddenly all striker guns are demonized. Glock’s had an issue in the mid 90’s. We’re almost in the mid 2020’s... which is almost 30 years later. Glocks had their faults. But... LEO’s aren’t shooting themselves and suing Glock left right and center like folks seem to be doing with P320’s.

    Sig had issues with their MPX feeding, released Gen 2 Mags for the MPX, etc.

    The reason I’m bringing this up as Sig’s the common denominator.
    The common denominator to me is the P320. I think the MPX or "Sig is bad" is a strawman, every company can make a turd. The difference is how far will a company to claim their turd isn't a turd. In this case, Sig has tried really hard and continues to fail.

    And just to be clear there have been discussions here on P-F about the safety of the VP9, the FN509, and the PPQ/PPx variants. Each of them has been shown to drop the striker in a variety of scenarios, but none of them fire when that happens.

    So far it seems the only striker variant guns that appear to be fully drop safe and don't drop the striker when hit are Glock and M&P. Both of those designs can be made less safe with aftermarket parts. But in stock form they're both superior designs.

    These issues will continue to pop up with Sig, because the design is fundamentally flawed with respect to the striker design in the P320. Until Sig redesigns the entire mechanism (not happening) the P320 will be a marginally safe weapon from a mechanical standpoint.

  10. #20
    Member olstyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Minnesota
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan0354 View Post
    Maybe I am ignorant, but isn't all strike fired pistol not the safest to carry with a round in the chamber. They are all like half cocked ready to fire?
    As others have said already, yes, you are ignorant on this particular topic. While many striker-fired guns are, as you put it "half cocked," some are completely decocked and some are fully cocked. Regardless of what level of tension their strikers carry at "rest," most (all?) have several passive safety systems which act to prevent them from firing when dropped, unless the trigger is pulled through its entire stroke, etc. Usually this includes a "striker/firing pin block" which rides up and down on a spring-loaded plunger and is actuated by an upward protrusion on the trigger bar. It also typically includes a tab on the trigger like your Glock has.

    Once your Glock is in the holster, as long as the fire control parts are stock and the holster covers the trigger, it's safe. (All bets are off with aftermarket trigger parts and light-bearing holsters. The trigger parts thing should be obvious, and on the lights, there is usually at least some possibility of accessing the trigger with those because the light is wider than the trigger guard, so the holster cannot be molded in such a way as to fully protect the trigger.)

    The SIG P320 is somewhat unique among them in that it lacks the trigger tab and has had several documented failures of safety systems leading to injuries and lawsuits, and while SIG's "voluntary upgrade program" supposedly fixed the problem with them not being drop safe, the most recent few lawsuits have alleged that the guns fired without the trigger being touched *and* without the guns being dropped, so if those allegations prove to be true, it would seem that SIG still has not fixed their guns.

    To the best of my recollection, at least, nobody has sued Walther for their fully-tensioned striker gun (PPQ) causing accidental discharges, nor HK for theirs (VP9), so it seems at least somewhat reasonable to conclude that their designs are safer.

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •