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Thread: And Yet Another 320 Lawsuit?

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Despite the initial striker QC issues, the P365 /365XL is one they got right.

    Iíve mentioned it before but I wish SIG would scale up the P365XL to take 320 mags and just call it the 320 2.0.
    I fully agree. Also speaking of 365 has there been any drop fire or ANY discharge when it wasn't intended issues with the 365? I haven't heard of any just striker breakage and going into battery issues from early guns and nothing at all from the 365XL guns.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Given the prevalence of NDs which occur with all types of pistols when drawing and re-holstering I want to see more facts before I accept the plaintiffs version of events.
    Indeed.


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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by octagon View Post
    I fully agree. Also speaking of 365 has there been any drop fire or ANY discharge when it wasn't intended issues with the 365? I haven't heard of any just striker breakage and going into battery issues from early guns and nothing at all from the 365XL guns.
    I would like to know this as well. I am aware of several teething issues with the P-365s but from everything I have read all have been remedied in late-production guns. I am unable to find anything about one discharging when dropped or due to poor design. I am also aware of agencies that have tested and authorized the P-365 while not authorizing Glock 43, 43X or 48 after undergoing the same testing. There seems to be enough P-365s in the wild that issues such that have been reported with the P-320 would have surfaced. For the record, you could not give me a P-320 but I am somewhat attracted to the P-365 after firing one recently.

  4. #44
    There are a ton of 365ís out there but Iím not sure they are in broad ďheavyĒ use like the 320ís are. 320ís being used by multiple departments and .mil with a lot more opportunity to find those issues. Your average Doris and Fred are probably not putting the 365 through itís paces the same way. That could be it.

    It could also be related to the fact that the 320 already has the stigma attached to it so anytime something happens, regardless of whether it was the userís fault or the pistolís fault, a lawsuit happens. Iím no lawyer or anything but I have to imagine Sig looks to be an easy litigation target right now if nothing else than for a quick settlement and payout. Sig is tired of all of it Iím sure. Why not join the party and continue to pile on an already controversial and questionable design for a quick potential payout?

    Not saying the pistol doesnít have some issues. Iím still cloudy on it no matter how much I read into it. Decided itís not worth the hassle.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by fatdog View Post
    I am old enough to get this analogy, Sig is Rover (old company) and surely Keltec is Leyland...
    Naw, it's all Leyland all the way down...

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  6. #46
    These copied quotes from EL and Fixer sure seen prescient now..... I too want this gun to work out in the end but damn it seems like it's gonna be a rough ride gettin to the point it's actually being trusted....All this stuff going on has some of our CQC instructors looking at their Colt M45A1's and wondering how long they can manage to hang on to them now....and many of these boys are glock shooters on their own time.....

    Quote Originally Posted by LangdonTactical

    OK, so here is a statement that many will not like. This whole thing is the gun communities own fault!

    I for one make mistakes, get scared, and do stupid stuff some times. I will just be over here in the corner with my TDA guns trying to learn how to shoot them better.
    Thanks Ernest.

    Fixer...

    Similar thoughts have been percolating in my mind.

    Like...How sure are we that all the new "wonder strikers" produced for the XM trials are really and truly vetted? How sure are we that we won't be seeing some serious safety flaws with time and use?

    There is a huge rush to market with these things and like any other industry that does it (autos and consumer electronics) there WILL be problems.
    "If you are not prepared to use force to defend civilization, then be prepared to accept barbarism." - Thomas Sowell

    "A Republic, if you can keep it" - Ben Franklin

  7. #47
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BWT View Post
    I think call a spade a spade.

    We werenít having these discussions when the M&Pís were all the rage here.
    Actually, we did. Quite a lot. Pistol-Forum is one of the only places on the web where there has been a nexus of intelligent people constantly warning that short, light trigger pulls have consequences when human beings do human being things. I could pull out examples all day:

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....oloaders/page2
    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....eleased)/page5

    ...but those will suffice to make the point.

    And not for nothing, but two of the people responsible for founding this forum invented a device that allows one to block the striker of a Glock precisely because of experience-based concerns over the safety implications of a striker fired gun with a short, light trigger press.

    I'm one of the forum's founders and I've engaged in countless discussions about the subject here. I carried a P30 for the better part of a decade after abandoning the M&P when I caught myself reholstering like an asshole and realizing in that moment that I was absolutely going to make that mistake again in the future. So I ditched my M&P's and went to the P30.

    I went to a Gen5 Glock 17 a couple of years ago reluctantly because I needed to get myself up to speed on using a dot on a handgun. The reason I went with the Glock was because I could get the SCD on it. The reason I still have a Glock as my carry and teaching gun despite the long list of issues I have with the Glock in general is because of the extra margin for safety that the SCD gives when holstering it.

    I'm so concerned about the Glock's takedown requirements that I only break the gun down for cleaning in a separate room of the house where there is no live ammunition and I spend a full 60 seconds checking the gun to ensure it's unloaded before cleaning it.

    I fully realize I'm handling one of the least forgiving handguns available and I know for absolute certain that I'm capable of fucking up while holding a handgun. So I treat it as a "when", not an "if" and try to use every process I can to keep the "when" at bay for another day.

    This is absolutely the result of the time I spent with Todd and the influence of Ernest and other sensible people on both of us.

    Sig releases the P320 and suddenly all striker guns are demonized. Glockís had an issue in the mid 90ís. Weíre almost in the mid 2020ís... which is almost 30 years later. Glocks had their faults. But... LEOís arenít shooting themselves and suing Glock left right and center like folks seem to be doing with P320ís.
    Again, this is one of the few places on the internet that has been honest about Glock's issues over the years. This is one of the few places where people who have significant experience and knowledge have discussed things like how many times Glock has been sued for unintentional discharges of their weapons. Or mentioned when bad actors at Glock threatened litigation against people who dared tell others about an agency's experience of something considerably off of "perfection" in the function of their weapons. Etc.

    Glock has never gotten a pass on Pistol-Forum. We've been one of the few places where you can actually get the truth about the tool while the rest of the internet just flings feces and screeches Glock's marketing lines over and over again.

    Yeah, there are people out there talking shit on the P320 because their religious icon, the Glock, didn't win. Those people are not the influential people here.

    Apart from that, it's evident that the P320 has some legitimate problems that are more severe and concerning than the Glock's issues. Glock's issues tend to be the result of the interface between user and bad design decisions. Some of these Sig problems have been a result of that, but some of them have been straight up mechanical failure.

    I'd love for the P320 based pistols to be a great alternative to the dominance of the Glock, especially since they actually have the good sense to include the possibility of a manual safety that doesn't suck (Sadly, the M&P's manual safety kind of sucks) on their pistols. But my desire to get an M17 and start working with it has been significantly diminished because it sure as hell looks to me like the kinks aren't out of the design. As much as I shoot and handle handguns I can't afford the risk that poses.

    The reason Iím bringing this up as Sigís the common denominator.
    Sig as a company has done some amazing things.

    Sig as a company has done some amazingly awful things, too. They certainly didn't pioneer making their customers test subjects, but they are making an art of it. PF's founder worked for Sig, remember. And he was there when their current leadership took over and started cutting corners and outsourcing.

    Sig has never been more profitable.

    But we have some excellent insight into how, exactly, they achieved that...and it isn't all through careful engineering and product innovation.

    Sig is certainly not alone in that. All the gun companies have done it to some extent or another.

    ...but there aren't police officers dropping a duty belt with an M&P in the holster getting shot by their sidearm while it's inside the holster, either. So...
    3/15/2016

  8. #48
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan0354 View Post
    Is Sig going down hill? I was out of gun scene for a long time, Sig was good before, but sounds like they are getting worst. I was on and off looking at the 2022 DA/SA
    From a safety standpoint I'd have zero concerns buying one of those pistols and carrying it daily. They are a fundamentally good, proven design that has offered excellent service over a very long time.

    Buy away if you like it.
    3/15/2016

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post

    Some designs are a lot safer than others (Glock, Walther P99, Kahr).
    How pre-cocked is the Kahr? It seems to have a long, even trigger pull.

  10. #50
    Wannabe Privateer RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BN View Post
    How pre-cocked is the Kahr? It seems to have a long, even trigger pull.
    It's good question. I don't know the exact amount, but Kahr says "pre-tensioned". Given the amount of trigger stroke needed to set one off, I'd guess "pre-tensioned" was at best equivalent to half-cock. But I'd bet it's more like, "quarter cock".

    The one advantage Kahr has is that it's striker design is proven and very safe. If one is used to a DA revolver the Kahr is an easy transition. The major disadvantage is capacity and a finicky design in terms of reliability. As someone said here earlier this week, "If the one you get doesn't work, dump it and get another." These days it seems like it's only a fraction of the guns that don't work vs. do.
    Seriously guys, are we not doing 'phrasing' anymore?

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