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Thread: Viability of Pieing

  1. #11
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    What is the difference between the two?
    I didn't say there was a difference between the two. I asked for you to clarify what you're talking about, because I've been taught several techniques of pieing a doorway (aka threshold clear) by multiple organizations and it doesn't sound anything like what you're describing with regards to one handed shooting, putting you in an improper fighting stance, or ignoring the primary danger area.

    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Based on your statements in your OP, you seem to have some fundamental misunderstandings about threshold evaluations which are not going to be addressed in an Internet forum.
    Well said. I'm out.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  2. #12
    OP, what CQB, MOUT, room clearing, etc training have you received or participated in? What’s your background? Your questions and concerns were addressed in much of the training I’ve received, including Craig Douglas’ AMIS.
    My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    Long time listener, first time caller:

    There seems to be some trends in the current training of singleton movement internal to structures for reducing risk through the utilization of pieing thresholds. Quite a few places preach the "weaponized geometry" or lack of belief in the fatal funnel, for driving their approach to this problem.

    Is this actually viable, practical, effective or efficient?

    Some concerns I have are:
    -Stance/posture/positioning seemed to be built around mitigation of being seen / "seeing more" vice being ready for a fight
    -Ability to deliver effective fire is sacrificed through the use of single hand pistol employment
    -Mistaking cover and concealment

    Curious as to anyone's thoughts on the subject.

    Thanks
    I'm speaking in general.....IMO a lot of movement techniques seem to be based on either 1) complete stealth - the bad guy doesn't hear you moving; or 2) noise from within the objective covering your movement. Very few folks will be able to approach the threshold/corner and clear w/o being heard if the other parties are focused on listening and looking.

    Stance/posture/positioning seemed to be built around mitigation of being seen / "seeing more" vice being ready for a fight Any movement technique, and pieing is movement, is going to be less stable than a stationary stance, so that is a consideration. Unless folks have done a lot of any 'tactical cover/movement' technique with video or another person focused on their location they are likely going to give themselves away by exposing something around the cover/concealment - a foot, a knee, a shoulder cap, muzzle, etc.

    -Ability to deliver effective fire is sacrificed through the use of single hand pistol employment
    there are a lot of folks who use different techniques, it's up to folks to separate the wheat from the chaff. I believe most knowledgeable folks will eschew one-armed firing as a preferred technique. You need to be able to shoot one-handed, though.

    -Mistaking cover and concealment I think this is more likely to happen with someone who has a one hour block of training than with someone who has actually trained in the use of cover and concealment. That being said, concealment is often all you have.

    Everything you mentioned are, or should be, concerns that are addressed during training or practice.

    So, when are you going to introduce your technique?

  4. #14
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    With nothing else to offer this thread, I will nonetheless throw the following short video clip up as grist for the P-F mill. Glover is obviously a known quantity, high profile personality that he is, with a track record of being both an E8 SOF dude and a GRS green badger. I don’t know Glover, but I do know one of his coaches from the Agency days (as noted in the video), so I’m willing to take his ideas under advisement.

    But I’m no expert on any of this. I am, however, interested in “least worst” practices around singleton movement since I have A, never had the distinction of serving on a team and never will, and B, am sort of a misanthropic loner these days anyways.

    Since it’s on YT already:

    Last edited by Totem Polar; 02-22-2021 at 11:36 AM.
    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    Long time listener, first time caller:

    There seems to be some trends in the current training of singleton movement internal to structures for reducing risk through the utilization of pieing thresholds. Quite a few places preach the "weaponized geometry" or lack of belief in the fatal funnel, for driving their approach to this problem.

    Is this actually viable, practical, effective or efficient?

    Some concerns I have are:
    -Stance/posture/positioning seemed to be built around mitigation of being seen / "seeing more" vice being ready for a fight
    -Ability to deliver effective fire is sacrificed through the use of single hand pistol employment
    -Mistaking cover and concealment

    Curious as to anyone's thoughts on the subject.

    Thanks
    Your point about mistaking cover and concealment is well made and I certainly don't advocate for exchanging with an adversary holding a piece of real estate that doesn't actually stop gunfire.

    As far as compromised shooting positions that is indeed something I advocate for in an effort to see someone first. There's a balance between a position that is practiced and developed in open training space and closed real world space. Part of what I encourage people to do is adapt their shooting platform to real world space and then understand the compromises they make. I have a range based portion of AMIS that I actually teach in closed coursework.

    On real world feedback I've had my curriculum running since 2006 and it continues to evolve. Clients for closed coursework include the I/C, JSOC, and SOCOM. Most of them seem to find merit in at least some of the curriculum, understanding that everyone has strong opinions on CQB/interior movement.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Totem Polar View Post
    With nothing else to offer this thread, I will nonetheless throw the following short video clip up as grist for the P-F mill. Glover is obviously a known quantity, high profile personality that he is, with a track record of being both an E8 SOF dude and a GRS green badger. I don’t know Glover, but I do know one of his coaches from the Agency days (as noted in the video), so I’m willing to take his ideas under advisement.

    But I’m no expert on any of this. I am, however, interested in “least worst” practices around singleton movement since I have A, never had the distinction of serving on a team and never will, and B, am sort of a misanthropic loner these days anyways.

    Since it’s on YT already:

    Glovers video I think is in contrast to this video, where you see significantly weakened fighting positions in the ploy of utilizing concealment. Vice Glover, that seems more built around fighting at any point time.

    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    So then why didn’t you ask that clearly in the OP ? I’m familiar with the argument you are making and don’t buy it for CONUS but it sounds like you already have this all figured out so why bother with playing games ?

    Going back to your OP questions:

    Some concerns I have are:
    -Stance/posture/positioning seemed to be built around mitigation of being seen / "seeing more" vice being ready for a fight -as TGS noted they are not mutually exclusive if done properly. Is this concern based on the AAR you linked ?
    -Ability to deliver effective fire is sacrificed through the use of single hand pistol employment in the AAR you linked the single hand fire is due to using a hand held flashlight technique so you are taking this out of context.

    -Mistaking cover and concealment - context dictates what is cover vs what is concealment.
    Please see video linked above for clearer example of what I was referencing.

    Incoming fire dictates cover vs concealment. A majority of CONUS buildings, internally are concealment.

    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    I didn't say there was a difference between the two. I asked for you to clarify what you're talking about, because I've been taught several techniques of pieing a doorway (aka threshold clear) by multiple organizations and it doesn't sound anything like what you're describing with regards to one handed shooting, putting you in an improper fighting stance, or ignoring the primary danger area.



    Well said. I'm out.
    What is the tactical decision that leads you to pie a threshold?

    I have no idea what a threshold assessment is. Which is why I was asking.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post

    So, when are you going to introduce your technique?
    I have none. Hence the questions. Im ruminating in the options

  7. #17
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    Unless the situation is such that you are comfortable with muzzling everything you're going to illuminate, one hand shooting – one on the handgun & the other using a light separately - will be the norm.

    As Craig noted, seeing sooner or earlier is a priority.

    If I’m at the point where I am going to enter, then, I’d prefer to see as much of that interior space before crossing the threshold.

    Curiosity about your context (of the solo clear) is kind of buggering up my thought process for a response. I was running some limited solo clearing work the other day; however, the focus was on manipulating, using handheld or weapon-mounted lights, and finding/ID'ing threats before moving to two-person runs in that structure – the students were all cops though.

    Is your focus on entering & clearing or exiting as safely as possible?

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Erick Gelhaus View Post
    Unless the situation is such that you are comfortable with muzzling everything you're going to illuminate, one hand shooting – one on the handgun & the other using a light separately - will be the norm.
    In terms of time devoted to training - which flashlight techniques do you emphasize more - married hand (Rogers, Chapman) or single hand (old FBI, neck index, etc.)? Just curious.

  9. #19
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    In terms of time devoted to training - which flashlight techniques do you emphasize more - married hand (Rogers, Chapman) or single hand (old FBI, neck index, etc.)? Just curious.
    Single hand. Some variation of the FBI technique lets me move the light up, down, either side, etc. And do it while not muzzling areas, people, things that don't need to be.

    If my carry gun doesn't have a light, my emphasis would be single hand searching, shooting techniques then into a Harries or similar that works with how you hold the light.

    If it has a WML, I'd still emphasize single-hand search & shoot techniques before working into shooting with two hands on the pistol.

    Did I answer your question?

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Erick Gelhaus View Post
    Single hand. Some variation of the FBI technique lets me move the light up, down, either side, etc. And do it while not muzzling areas, people, things that don't need to be.

    If my carry gun doesn't have a light, my emphasis would be single hand searching, shooting techniques then into a Harries or similar that works with how you hold the light.

    If it has a WML, I'd still emphasize single-hand search & shoot techniques before working into shooting with two hands on the pistol.

    Did I answer your question?
    Yes, thank you. Nice to know what other folks are thinking.

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