Viability of Pieing

[Odin Bravo One]

I’d genuinely love to hear your input if you’re willing to share. I fully acknowledge that all the tactics I’ve used when clearing houses have had a 100% success rate because the people inside have decided to fight back ballistically exactly 0% of the time. That’s definitely one of the areas where the military side has much more experience over the last few decades because 99.99% (I’m making up this number) of cqb/entries in CONUS LE aren’t opposed with gunfire.

Dan,

I am more than happy to share what little information I may possess from my limited experience and training in close quarters/urban work.

Problem is, this isn’t a topic one learns from a book. And definitely not from an internet board. (I mean fuck me, the mods are shit in this place!!) I liken it to the original Karate Kid where Danielsan is drawing on his few lessons at the Y in Newark, and getting the rest from a library book when Mr. Miyagi comes rolling in.

The variables are endless, and the “rules” are more general guidelines and suggestions. The biggest issue with TTPs for such activities is that fortuitous outcomes reinforce shitty tactics and poor decisions.

I used to get six weeks of 12-14 hour days to teach this shit to highly motivated, well-trained, and competent groups of men, and at the end of it all, I could throw a very simple, and straightforward scenario at them, and they’d choke on it as often as they didn’t.

What I found to be the only real universal truism is that a poor plan well executed beats a fantastic plan poorly executed every time.

If ever you’re in my neck of the woods, well you’re probably fucking lost first of all, but I’m happy to provide a map, a Cuban, adult beverages, and a chair in the “Office” where we can discuss this topic until it feels like it can be discussed no more. But you won’t come away with any answers from me. Just observations.

[Hambo]

Sorry I missed the bulk of this thread.

Except I’m not.

What I am sorry about is that people appear to honestly believe what they are typing/saying, and it is painfully obvious these assertions have never been tested, let alone validated. The amount of “dumb” we have managed to assemble in a single thread is impressive.

Mic drop.

[WobblyPossum]

Dan,

I am more than happy to share what little information I may possess from my limited experience and training in close quarters/urban work.

Problem is, this isn’t a topic one learns from a book. And definitely not from an internet board. (I mean fuck me, the mods are shit in this place!!) I liken it to the original Karate Kid where Danielsan is drawing on his few lessons at the Y in Newark, and getting the rest from a library book when Mr. Miyagi comes rolling in.

The variables are endless, and the “rules” are more general guidelines and suggestions. The biggest issue with TTPs for such activities is that fortuitous outcomes reinforce shitty tactics and poor decisions.

I used to get six weeks of 12-14 hour days to teach this shit to highly motivated, well-trained, and competent groups of men, and at the end of it all, I could throw a very simple, and straightforward scenario at them, and they’d choke on it as often as they didn’t.

What I found to be the only real universal truism is that a poor plan well executed beats a fantastic plan poorly executed every time.

If ever you’re in my neck of the woods, well you’re probably fucking lost first of all, but I’m happy to provide a map, a Cuban, adult beverages, and a chair in the “Office” where we can discuss this topic until it feels like it can be discussed no more. But you won’t come away with any answers from me. Just observations.

I’d like that very much. Thank you for the offer.

[Totem Polar]

Dan,

I am more than happy to share what little information I may possess from my limited experience and training in close quarters/urban work.

Problem is, this isn’t a topic one learns from a book. And definitely not from an internet board. (I mean fuck me, the mods are shit in this place!!) I liken it to the original Karate Kid where Danielsan is drawing on his few lessons at the Y in Newark, and getting the rest from a library book when Mr. Miyagi comes rolling in.

The variables are endless, and the “rules” are more general guidelines and suggestions. The biggest issue with TTPs for such activities is that fortuitous outcomes reinforce shitty tactics and poor decisions.

I used to get six weeks of 12-14 hour days to teach this shit to highly motivated, well-trained, and competent groups of men, and at the end of it all, I could throw a very simple, and straightforward scenario at them, and they’d choke on it as often as they didn’t.

What I found to be the only real universal truism is that a poor plan well executed beats a fantastic plan poorly executed every time.

If ever you’re in my neck of the woods, well you’re probably fucking lost first of all, but I’m happy to provide a map, a Cuban, adult beverages, and a chair in the “Office” where we can discuss this topic until it feels like it can be discussed no more. But you won’t come away with any answers from me. Just observations.

Man, I appreciate your input. Please feel encouraged to speak up more when the spirit moves you.

[KEW8338]

Here is another interesting video showing a gunfight (or maybe just a shooting) through a closed door.

While not tied to pieing, I think this video demonstrates just how poorly walls in most structures don't really do a thing to bullets.

[DDTSGM]

I think we are mostly in agreement on that. By now the Buzzards would have stripped the flesh from this dead horse.

[Half Moon]

I think we are mostly in agreement on that. By now the Buzzards would have stripped the flesh from this dead horse.

https://dilbert.com/strip/2007-12-18

[UniSol]

I continue to struggle with the assertions that this thread has jumped the shark (maybe it has by now, but not in the first 5-10 pages). I have gained some good atmospherics on the pie-ing techniques taught to me numerous times by different ODAs (as an enabler in a Group). Is it concrete, neurally ingrained technique, no, just a little understanding. What is harmed by that? There is some static to be found early on without a doubt but the gist of *some* of these “shut it down” responses seems strictly emotional and frankly a little selfish. It’s usually the same actors from what I have observed. Take it for what it’s worth but if your sensibilities have been offended by this thread, stay out of it with your drama. Other SMEs have managed to keep it constructive and my respect for them has grown for them proportionately. Other individuals, the opposite. Probably means jack to the people who should hear it but whatever.

[DDTSGM]

Sorry to have harshed your mellow.

One problem that I see with these type discussions is after several pages things have either been pretty well discussed or the discussion has jumped the tracks and is far off course.

Slicing the pie is a very viable tactic - when used in appropriate circumstances AND executed properly. Is it the end all of tactics? No, and anyone who asserts such is doing a disservice to folks they are teaching/working with.

I really don't know how much more can be said, pretty sure myself and numerous other folks on this thread could give valid, viable instruction on the when, where, wht and how of pieing and related tactics, but not going to do so on the internet.

[TGS]

Sorry to have harshed your mellow.

One problem that I see with these type discussions is after several pages things have either been pretty well discussed or the discussion has jumped the tracks and is far off course.

Slicing the pie is a very viable tactic - when used in appropriate circumstances AND executed properly. Is it the end all of tactics? No, and anyone who asserts such is doing a disservice to folks they are teaching/working with.

I really don't know how much more can be said, pretty sure myself and numerous other folks on this thread could give valid, viable instruction on the when, where, wht and how of pieing and related tactics, but not going to do so on the internet.

hear, hear.

/thread