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Thread: Viability of Pieing

  1. #161
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    Do the walls stop bullets?
    That’s about what I thought, thanks.
    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Totem Polar View Post
    That’s about what I thought, thanks.
    So, likely, if you didn't have a barricaded shooter. You do now.

    So you've just induced the most dangerous course of action

  3. #163
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    So, likely, if you didn't have a barricaded shooter. You do now.
    Makes sense

    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post

    So you've just induced the most dangerous course of action
    I’m not *entirely* sure I follow... I think I do, but not sure.

    I can see that there are a lot of situationals to deal with before taking a shot during a pie.
    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

  4. #164
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    This has been a pretty interesting thread to read through, and I can’t help thinking we’re constantly searching for the least worst option. FWIW I do think that on the aggregate pie’ing from the threshold is slightly less risky in most circumstances; however, I can think of multiple situations where dynamic is preferred (in extremis / working an open area like an office common area where there may be a plethora of exposure points (offices) in the open could make working from office to office around the perimeter the least worst option.

    During AMIS evos I did find that it was much easier to hear movement and get a general understanding of the opposition location when they were moving dynamically. slow methodical pieing works best if you can retain the element of surprise and see your adversary first.

    While all of us conceded that interior walls of most structures in the US are concealment at best to small arms fire I still feel that there are other considerations that make pie’ing preferred for the most likely situations I may see (normal civ)

    If the adversary has a knife / bat / similar type weapon it does provide a physical barrier that buys me time and space.

    If I need to break contact it’s much easier to do so before committing to the room and anyone pursuing me will need to navigate the funnel which could give me counter ambush opportunities.

    I learned from ECQC you want to avoid a 50:50 where you’re trading rounds in close proximity as much as possible because while you may win, everyone may end up loosing. If you make dynamic entry you may very well be in a 50:50 with a barricaded shooter or multiple assailants which could turn into a 90:10. It also brings me in closer range to the adversary placing me at a higher risk of entanglement, and I’m much more proficient shooting (USPSA M) than I am grappling.

    Working the room from the threshold I feel like I have more time to see and process which I personally really need to make better shoot, don’t shoot yet, don’t shoot decisions since this is not my profession. If there are multiple assailants or an unfavorable situation in the room I can break contact easier, keeps me further away from contact weapons and entanglement, and allows me to use my marksmanship to improve my advantage.


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  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket20_Ginsu View Post
    This has been a pretty interesting thread to read through, and I can’t help thinking we’re constantly searching for the least worst option. FWIW I do think that on the aggregate pie’ing from the threshold is slightly less risky in most circumstances; however, I can think of multiple situations where dynamic is preferred (in extremis / working an open area like an office common area where there may be a plethora of exposure points (offices) in the open could make working from office to office around the perimeter the least worst option.

    During AMIS evos I did find that it was much easier to hear movement and get a general understanding of the opposition location when they were moving dynamically. slow methodical pieing works best if you can retain the element of surprise and see your adversary first.

    While all of us conceded that interior walls of most structures in the US are concealment at best to small arms fire I still feel that there are other considerations that make pie’ing preferred for the most likely situations I may see (normal civ)

    If the adversary has a knife / bat / similar type weapon it does provide a physical barrier that buys me time and space.

    If I need to break contact it’s much easier to do so before committing to the room and anyone pursuing me will need to navigate the funnel which could give me counter ambush opportunities.

    I learned from ECQC you want to avoid a 50:50 where you’re trading rounds in close proximity as much as possible because while you may win, everyone may end up loosing. If you make dynamic entry you may very well be in a 50:50 with a barricaded shooter or multiple assailants which could turn into a 90:10. It also brings me in closer range to the adversary placing me at a higher risk of entanglement, and I’m much more proficient shooting (USPSA M) than I am grappling.

    Working the room from the threshold I feel like I have more time to see and process which I personally really need to make better shoot, don’t shoot yet, don’t shoot decisions since this is not my profession. If there are multiple assailants or an unfavorable situation in the room I can break contact easier, keeps me further away from contact weapons and entanglement, and allows me to use my marksmanship to improve my advantage.


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    The practicality of "seeing first" and maintaining a degree of stealth are much easier said than done. Briefs well. But reality is significantly different.

    You've acknowledged the lack of walls in the US stopping bullets. And you don't want to go 50:50 against a barricaded guy. If you are pieing a barricaded guy, your odds are way less than 50:50

    Next is the notion of breaking contact from a room. I'm not sure exactly you are getting by that. I understand what you mean in theory. But in actuality, that seems like immediate defeat. I'm picturing some Indiana Jones scenario where you jump into a room of nazis then run out. Do you mean you've made entry and are unmaking entry. Or do you mean choosing not to go into the room at all?

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    The practicality of "seeing first" and maintaining a degree of stealth are much easier said than done. Briefs well. But reality is significantly different.

    You've acknowledged the lack of walls in the US stopping bullets. And you don't want to go 50:50 against a barricaded guy. If you are pieing a barricaded guy, your odds are way less than 50:50

    Next is the notion of breaking contact from a room. I'm not sure exactly you are getting by that. I understand what you mean in theory. But in actuality, that seems like immediate defeat. I'm picturing some Indiana Jones scenario where you jump into a room of nazis then run out. Do you mean you've made entry and are unmaking entry. Or do you mean choosing not to go into the room at all?
    Thanks for the clarifications. Agree - stealth is difficult, my main thinking is that stealth while dynamic is more difficult than while deliberate.

    Right if you make entry into a room, you see him and he sees you and both of you are indexed on the other that’s a 50:50, if there is a barricaded shooter or if there are multiple shooters in the room that’s a ~90:10 in their favor. If you can see that latter situation before committing to the room and maintain more standoff I think there are advantages.

    Too funny, good movie series and visual. What I meant is not making entry, and upon pie’ing and identifying a threat or situation where the adversary has the advantage, putting distance between me and the threat(s) as quickly as possible, try to improve my position, seek cover / concealment / depth / distance, and work the problem from there (pin then in the room, continue to retreat, strongpoint, etc). If you are in the room I think you really need to focus on winning on the X and have fewer options. Completely understand for current MIL and LE this may not be viable.


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  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket20_Ginsu View Post
    Thanks for the clarifications. Agree - stealth is difficult, my main thinking is that stealth while dynamic is more difficult than while deliberate.

    Right if you make entry into a room, you see him and he sees you and both of you are indexed on the other that’s a 50:50, if there is a barricaded shooter or if there are multiple shooters in the room that’s a ~90:10 in their favor. If you can see that latter situation before committing to the room and maintain more standoff I think there are advantages.

    Too funny, good movie series and visual. What I meant is not making entry, and upon pie’ing and identifying a threat or situation where the adversary has the advantage, putting distance between me and the threat(s) as quickly as possible, try to improve my position, seek cover / concealment / depth / distance, and work the problem from there (pin then in the room, continue to retreat, strongpoint, etc). If you are in the room I think you really need to focus on winning on the X and have fewer options. Completely understand for current MIL and LE this may not be viable.


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    Pieing generally reduces you to a 50:50 crap shoot.

    If you can attack that corner by fire, pieing can be effective there. If made as a tactical decision, not a method of clearance. That would be what some call prepping a corner with fire, or shooting into/out of "cover".

    If you are able to maintain a degree of stealth and surprise and "see the guy" first. You are not likely going to be able to PID him. So, that leaves you with what decision tree?

    Verbal commands, in a hope he complies, which now kills every element of surprise you had, your disposition and location is largely known. At the gain of what?

  8. #168
    Site Supporter Odin Bravo One's Avatar
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    Sorry I missed the bulk of this thread.

    Except I’m not.

    What I am sorry about is that people appear to honestly believe what they are typing/saying, and it is painfully obvious these assertions have never been tested, let alone validated. The amount of “dumb” we have managed to assemble in a single thread is impressive.
    You can get much more of what you want with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Giving Back View Post
    Sorry I missed the bulk of this thread.

    Except I’m not.

    What I am sorry about is that people appear to honestly believe what they are typing/saying, and it is painfully obvious these assertions have never been tested, let alone validated. The amount of “dumb” we have managed to assemble in a single thread is impressive.
    I’d genuinely love to hear your input if you’re willing to share. I fully acknowledge that all the tactics I’ve used when clearing houses have had a 100% success rate because the people inside have decided to fight back ballistically exactly 0% of the time. That’s definitely one of the areas where the military side has much more experience over the last few decades because 99.99% (I’m making up this number) of cqb/entries in CONUS LE aren’t opposed with gunfire.
    My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.

  10. #170
    Just some observations about stealth:

    1) Years ago when I was attending courses at the HK International Training Division, a guy named Dan C., a Sergeant (then) with LASD SWAT was one of the adjunct instructors. He told me that he couldn't recall an instance where the team made it to the doorway where the barricade had located himself w/o being compromised. I took this to mean inside a home or business. IIRC he said the subject would usually announce with some variation of 'I hear you out there' and sometimes the team's presence prompted surrender and other times suicide.

    This real-world information, pretty much dovetailed what I experienced during training hundreds of police recruits in building searches and active shooter response - unless their is ambient noise within the structure or room, you generally don't get to the doorway undetected. One exception to this was when we used school houses during active shooter courses - slow stealth movement down halls sometimes allowed officers to surprise at the doorway.

    I think during force-on-force the SIM helmets provide just enough muffling effect to give the entering officers somewhat of an edge, but as the scenario/safety officer in the room with ballistic googles, ball cap, and neck protector, I would generally pick them up before entry.

    2) Pieing, with the attitude/intent of remaining undetected by someone inside a room, or around a corner is kind of difficult. To prepare to teach/demo pieing during building search training I spent a lot of time doing corners with video cameras aimed at them to find out what works and get the contortions down pat. Generally, folks give themselves away by...................

    3) If we consider center-fed rooms, a good pie should give you about 75% to 90% of the room IF the door is open. When working with a partner, two anchors the far side of the door as one pies out and around. If one remains undetected/doesn't see a threat they have only a small portion of the room to clear upon entry - aside from desks or other furniture that obstruct view.

    If the pieing officer sees someone, action is dependent on the situation, it may be to run like a scared child for cover and lock the structure down for a barricade, it might be to follow their bullets into the room if it is an active shooter situation.....................

    Pieing is a good tool to have in the tool kit, it isn't an end all, and someone instructing folks in the art would be remiss if they presented it as a sure-fire, safe way to conduct business. In the school house setting it is pretty easy to have a person go down a hallway while you remain around the corner, and then slice around to detect them before they detect you, real world, I wouldn't bet the farm on it unless I had a good, solid, corner to work from, or was using the pie adjunct to rapid movement.

    It is just one way to skin a cat.

    ,,,,,,,,,,, means I decided not to put the info following into print.

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