Viability of Pieing

[Dave Williams]

This has certainly turned into an interesting thread. Are any of you taught the "Hi Threat CQB" method? That is what we are using for room entry as opposed to threshold assessment or points of domination. There is quite a bit of info out there about Hi Threat CQB if you're interested in googling.

[AMC]

*quietly to self*"Why are you doing this???"

Okay, I'll bite. The OP's question initially seemed geared towards Solo movement in structures, while armed, correct? And whether 'Pieing' is a viable tactic in that context, versus more 'athletic' or 'dynamic' tactics based on movement? Several posters here, with a great deal of training and experience, have said that yes, in context it can be. Several posters have explained that tactics depend on situational context, and that what is applicable in one circumstance may not work in another. Many can succeed, and all can fail. The fact is that Solo 'Clearing' of a structure is a big shit sandwich, and you should avoid taking a bite unless lives are in danger.

The OP appears to disagree with that assessment, though exactly why (given the context qualifiers provided by other posters) is really not clear to me. Other than, "I don't agree. I think this is a better tactic." Cool, man. You do you. If that 'tactic' works better for you in your experience, drive on. Nobody is trying to convince you, they're simply stating what they do in the context of their training and experience. You seem to be trying to convince yourself, by convincing others. But maybe I'm wrong.

Several posters have inquired about your background, in an attempt to figure out where you're coming from. Several of those people have a great deal of training and experience in this subject, and have offered their thoughts based on that. You do not seem willing to offer yours, due to 'privacy', etc.

Lest I be called a hypocrite....I've been a cop for 29 years with one of the largest municipal agencies on the West Coast. I've worked the district with the highest concentration of violent crime west of the Mississippi, and possibly the most 'diverse' police district in the state (gang infested housing projects on one end, Nancy Pelosi, Dianne Feinstein and the Getty Family on the other). Most of that career was spent in patrol, by choice, save for a stint in General Investigations (Robbery, Burglary, Agg. Assault). I was shot at 4 times as a patrolman, and had to drop the hammer myself. I have participated in "Armed movement in structures" in every type of structure you can imagine, residential and commercial. I was a Patrol and First Responder Tactics instructor for our department. I currently supervise the firearms training program for our department, where I am struggling desperately to drag our program kicking and screaming into the 21st Century. I do not believe I have all...or even most...of the answers, and regularly consult with my peers up and down the state about best practices, training methodologies, equipment, etc. Some of those dudes are also members here, by the way.

In answer to your question, the consensus answer basically boils down to "Sure....maybe....it depends." Without knowing you or your background, the direction of the conversation points to a lack of experience. Or at least that's how it comes across. I mean...a lot of these guys are trying to kind of agree with you, if you haven't caught that.

This thread in some ways reminds me of a recruit we had recently, who's known to another forum member here. Very good shooter, who's been shooting pretty seriously with some local guys for over a year. We do an 'In-House' course review with the recruits after the training, separate from the POST mandated 1-5 BS reviews they have to do. We ask for actual honest feedback from the recruits, and we've actually made changes to the program based on consistent themes we see in those reviews. This recruit was very honest in his review, and was appalled that we expected recruits to obtain the level of skill it took him a year to achieve in our 80 hour program. Point being that he entirely missed the point, and the program is not at all geared toward such an outcome (would that it was!). I think this kid has the makings of a good cop...but he hadn't quite grasped that being a good shooter is not the same thing as being a good cop. Maybe he has by now.

This is not to slam anyone for a lack of experience. We all started there, and there's always someone cleverer than yourself, to quote Merlin. But if you're missing when people are saying "Yeah sure, that could work, but maybe this too..."? I dunno, think about it.

[PNWTO]

@AMC and @TGS are spot-on; warhead-on-forehead accurate.

You can’t even attempt sandtable stuff like this via a text-based format so I’m not sure the point but knowing a background/foundation does assist with some fluency via typing.

Personally, I’ll go ahead and say that I’ve solo’d a family-size, two-story structure in a hostile environment; I did have four Afghan soldiers but that particular group wasn’t exactly an asset. Slowly pieing worked because we were more focused on IEDs and we never encountered a soul. Obviously, different stimulus would have changed the tale. It’s a very, very weird world and the opponent gets a vote so my humble and inexperienced offering would be to know the fundamentals and be practiced enough to know when to change and adapt.

I’ll also add that as an SOI grad; I didn’t know shit at the time but aggressiveness pays dividends.

I'm having PTMcCain flashbacks.

Remember how Voodoo liked to “debate”?

[DDTSGM]

Nah. We've never met. My academy did the same demo with a Sig and a piece of paper.

You called me old when I mentioned in another thread that I had a REP-63 contract for the 12th Group. Back when there was a 12th Group.

pat

Ahh. Those were the good old days.

[EPF]

Other than AMIS, which is rarely offered for various reasons, is there another open enrollment individual tactics course with a force on force on force component?

[WobblyPossum]

One of the problems with validating tactics with SIMS training is that everyone there knows they are there to at least do a SIMS simulation. You can’t get around that.

If you notice, there were specific instructions given to the roleplayers as to what actions they should take. IMHO, when you have folks staged looking at the door (second assailant) waiting to ambush the entry team you have set up a, while not unheard of, fairly unlikely scenario designed to get the results you want.

A more realistic scenario would have been to have both offenders focused on the innocent and not reacting until they see the officers or hear a shot. Even then, their focus is unrealistically on listening and looking for the officers out of the corner of their eye. And use virgins (explained later).

The being said, when properly executed, sim drills can be instructive in developing tactics. For example, after doing all the geometry on what movement would serve best to give officers the advantage in close range encounters, I chose to do SIM drills to validate my beliefs and prioritize training.

My belief was that diagonal movement into the threat, off the threat axis, would cause the suspect more reactionary delay and make them work harder to engage than lateral movement, diagonal movement back, or movement straight back.

In order to test this I set up a field contact scenario. I stood the officer facing the subject at three yards. The subject was informed to drop their ID to the ground and aggressively reach behind their back for the pistol in their waistband and shoot the officer on my signal. I briefed the officer that upon perception of threat, they were to drive in diagonally, left or right, and engage the subject when appropriate. Neither the officer nor the subject knew the other’s instructions.

I also realized something important, in order to validate the tactic, I had to do each rep with ‘virgins’ because otherwise they would know what the other’s role and response was.

I think you have to keep things like this in mind when you are using sims to validate techniques.

JMO, YMMV

Your points are valid and I mostly agree. I believe it is important to always give role players specific guidance with well defined left and right limits. It seems that things always devolve into paintball wars without such restrictions. Your point about using “virgins” who don’t know the instructions given to the other participants is also well taken.

[BehindBlueI's]

Thread at least partially cleared up, dead guy people didn't seem to like references moved. Technical forum, try to keep it at least sort of on topic.

[HCM]

Other than AMIS, which is rarely offered for various reasons, is there another open enrollment individual tactics course with a force on force on force component?

Jon Dufresne of Kinetic Consulting does a solo tactics course called “Weaponized Geometry” which I believe includes FOF via Airsoft.

[PNWTO]

Other than AMIS, which is rarely offered for various reasons, is there another open enrollment individual tactics course with a force on force on force component?

I think the dude behind Cherries Holsters, or something similar, used to offer an OE “Israeli Solo CQB” thing.

[jnc36rcpd]

Bill Blowers of Tap-Rack Tactical has a Surefire Field Notes video demonstrating somewhat dynamic solo house clearing. He emphasized that these tactics were to rapidly locate a loved one in a structure under threat. The video was not intended to show patrol officers, soldiers, or SWAT team members how to perform, but the techniques seem largely valid.