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Thread: Viability of Pieing

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post
    I'm gonna add one more thing. I just watched the video from Mike Glover (who I know) in it's entirety. I haven't sat through Mike's class but we have been co-located, teaching simultaneous tracks of instruction in the same venue as recently as December.

    If you watch the video, particularly from the 6 minute mark to the 12 or 13 minute mark, those are absolutely compromised shooting positions executed in an effort to conform to concealment and reduce signature. He's also switching hands, while moving and improving the shooting platform when space allows him to, or he transitions from hunting to fighting. I teach the EXACT same ideas with maybe a bit more concession towards one handed versus two handed shooting. Mike is a former Group guy with time spent at GRS, one of the few places where singleton movement is actually explored. In fact, the guy that formally taught that content, for that organization for a decade, is someone I know and interact with on a regular basis. Singleton theory as a modality of movement compared to team based movement is a completely distinct process, that everyone agrees is always about "suck less" and anyone that occupies any space in the industry exploring the idea will always concede that everything is imperfect and in-extremis at best.
    No run in cqb is perfect. I largely prefer the athletic stance Glover took to what is demonstrated in AMIS for maximizing vision and conforming to the space.

    This guy you speak of. Is he the watch maker?

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    No run in cqb is perfect. I largely prefer the athletic stance Glover took to what is demonstrated in AMIS for maximizing vision and conforming to the space.
    And I have zero issues with subjective interpretations of tactical principles. But Mike breaking his master grip on the pistol while controlling the muzzle to the flanks most assuredly is a compromised shooting position. What you describe as "athletic" is open to interpretation. I can most assuredly move quickly and fight from a number of seemingly "compromised' or dare I say "unathletic" positions.

    This guy you speak of. Is he the watch maker?
    Nope. Different guy, different program, same client.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    A great many organizations, instructors, institutions etc lack combat reps. So to overcome this they employ the scientific method utilizing Sims based environments.

    The progression of a great deal of modern tactics comes from "this was tested with sims". Which is crazy to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    I didn't realize a tactics forum would draw such emotional responses.
    It's because you sound like someone who played Call of Duty and read some stuff on the internet for entertainment and clearly think you understand stuff that you clearly do not. Given some of the verbiage you've used, at best you sound like someone that went through SOI-MCT...probably some years ago, or maybe you got admin'd out of service....and haven't done anything since.

    The idea that our tactics were developed out of sim runs is fucking ludicrous and underscores how ignorant and out of touch with reality you are.

    Your approach to this conversation sounds extremely "academic" (and unschooled, at that) as opposed to experiential. In this thread, you've had numerous patrol and SWAT officers speak to their use of these tactics by themselves and their organizations, as well as a true, verifiable SME who trains higher level practitioners for when they have a Very Bad DayTM. To the other end of the spectrum, here's a screenshot from the last mission I ran before coming home on R&R recently:
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    The people here are not talking out of their rear-ends using theoreticals that aren't grounded in the bad experiences of those who went before us and learned stuff the hard way so that we don't have to. If I or my team mates have to move through those buildings pictured above, our tactics are not theoretical based on sim gun games. So, yeah, sorry/not sorry that we think you're a fucking boob.
    Last edited by TGS; 02-23-2021 at 12:07 PM.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    In this thread, you've had numerous patrol and SWAT officers speak to their use of these tactics by themselves and their organizations, as well....
    Thanks, dude. Despite our previous issues I still respect you and your opinions, too!

    pat

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    It's because you sound like someone who played Call of Duty and read some stuff on the internet for entertainment and clearly think you understand stuff that you clearly do not. Given some of the verbiage you've used, at best you sound like someone that went through SOI-MCT...probably some years ago, or maybe you got admin'd out of service....and haven't done anything since.

    The idea that our tactics were developed out of sim runs is fucking ludicrous and underscores how ignorant and out of touch with reality you are.

    Your approach to this conversation sounds extremely "academic" (and unschooled, at that) as opposed to experiential. In this thread, you've had numerous patrol and SWAT officers speak to their use of these tactics by themselves and their organizations, as well as a true, verifiable SME who trains higher level practitioners for when they have a Very Bad DayTM. To the other end of the spectrum, here's a screenshot from the last mission I ran before coming home on R&R recently:
    Name:  work1.jpg
Views: 289
Size:  33.9 KBName:  work2.jpg
Views: 300
Size:  24.5 KB

    The people here are not talking out of their rear-ends using theoreticals that aren't grounded in the bad experiences of those who went before us and learned stuff the hard way so that we don't have to. If I or my team mates have to move through those buildings pictured above, our tactics are not theoretical based on sim gun games. So, yeah, sorry/not sorry that we think you're a fucking boob.
    Im open to a discussion. A great deal of this conversation seems people demanding to know what my background is, demanding I train with specific individuals, then demanding how I could have the audacity to challenge their train of thought.

    No more. No less. Discussion.

    Craig discussed his lean towards the notion of conforming to the shape/environment you are in to maximize vision.

    I disagree with that to an extent.

    I laid out my approach to these problems.

    So you've called me a noob. A boob...let's find a third that rhymes. You've also shat on any graduate of SOI or MCT.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    You've also shat on any graduate of SOI or MCT.
    Sure thing, hero. Pretty sure I'm not the only Marine here, and I'm pretty sure all of them here (including the P-F.com member who was one of my combat instructors some 15 years ago, teaching us this stuff, and is now a senior NCO overseeing the instruction of tactics from a programmatic level) would agree with me that the basic program is very limited and has some severe knowledge gaps when it comes to operating outside the concept of a provisional rifle squad.

    So, I guess I'll take that as a "yes".
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    Im open to a discussion. A great deal of this conversation seems people demanding to know what my background is, demanding I train with specific individuals, then demanding how I could have the audacity to challenge their train of thought.
    If you're new here and not a retread, I'll help you out. How you know what you know is a very helpful thing to know in an Internet discussion. Nobody is demanding you train with anyone, but if you don't think your experience is helpful in evaluating how seriously to take your ideas or criticisms I don't know what to tell you. If you have an odd bump on your forearm and Dude A is an oncologist, Dude B is a dermatologist, and Dude C is a street cop even if you know jack-diddly-shit about the danger of odd bumps you'd probably know A and B are offering better advice and weight that accordingly if they conflict with C. That's so basic in human interaction it shouldn't have to be explained, but for some reason when conversations happen online it sometimes gets lost.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    If you're new here and not a retread, I'll help you out. How you know what you know is a very helpful thing to know in an Internet discussion. Nobody is demanding you train with anyone, but if you don't think your experience is helpful in evaluating how seriously to take your ideas or criticisms I don't know what to tell you. If you have an odd bump on your forearm and Dude A is an oncologist, Dude B is a dermatologist, and Dude C is a street cop even if you know jack-diddly-shit about the danger of odd bumps you'd probably know A and B are offering better advice and weight that accordingly if they conflict with C. That's so basic in human interaction it shouldn't have to be explained, but for some reason when conversations happen online it sometimes gets lost.
    This or some version of it comes up often enough that it should be a sticky; maybe even a rule for people who want to insist they're knowledgeable - tell me why.

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    Im open to a discussion. A great deal of this conversation seems people demanding to know what my background is, demanding I train with specific individuals, then demanding how I could have the audacity to challenge their train of thought.

    No more. No less. Discussion.

    Craig discussed his lean towards the notion of conforming to the shape/environment you are in to maximize vision.

    I disagree with that to an extent.

    I laid out my approach to these problems.

    So you've called me a noob. A boob...let's find a third that rhymes. You've also shat on any graduate of SOI or MCT.

    Just for the record, I haven't taken anything thing you've said or your on-line comportment as being maliciously argumentative or disrespectful. I think tactics discussions are laborious and can get into being tedious depending on the time and energy that one has to devote to them with carefully, curated writing. I trend towards avoiding them usually because of my travel schedule and a limited amount of time and resources to actually give meaningful, nuanced, engagement.

    And I'm not the last word AT ALL. There are quite a few former commandos on closed programs that disagree with me on a lot of things. Getting a consensus among a group like that is literally herding cats.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    I dont think I said zero training. If this becomes a merit badge list of trainers, in order to validate an individuals opinion vice the merits of the opinion stated....well....

    Again this is the tactics forum. A place to discuss tactics.

    You said shooting a guy in an extremity. If you are shooting a limb. Chances are you cant see center mass. Making PID potentially difficult. I understand the effectiveness of shooting what you got.



    2x4 and drywall, to me does not constitute any real degree of protection. Maybe against 22LR.

    I would love to discuss VCQB but with the amount hate mail generated over this....Im not sure the tactics forum could take it.




    #2 is absolutely a compromised position. It is not as good as having 2 hands on the gun. Does it serve a niche purpose? Yes. Plenty of things that serve a niche purpose are compromised from the original form factor. I apologize my words are strong.....



    Walls in most other areas of the world are comprised of 3-12" of rock/mud/concrete. Those are effective at actually reducing the effects of incoming fire. Additionally that decision is part of a tactical thought process which blends into actual TTPs and escalation of force.

    One of the determining factors to me, is if I have to go into that room or not.



    In previous linked videos, would you say any participants got bogged down in doorways?




    People also tend to shoot at where you WERE, and if you are moving, not where you ARE.

    To me, I default to maneuver. I can stack odds in that, people have a tendency to shoot where you were, coupled with people suck at shooting moving targets. These are the small details, to me, you should be trying to steal advantages from.



    Sim Based science always weirds me out. That always turns into some super gramaton cleric shit

    To me, as it stands my decision making process for how I tackle a breach/threshold/aperture/portal is based off

    1)Do I have to go into that room?
    2)Do the walls offer me ballistic protection ?

    If I have to go into the room, I will not pie it. I will enter dynamically. Essentially running rabbit. (risk mitigation done through surprise and speed)

    If I dont have to go into the room, and the walls offer ballistic protection, I will pie/pin/bypass. If engaged, I will engage from the threshold using available cover (risk mitigation done through speed and violence of action)

    If I dont have to go into the room, and the walls offer no ballistic protection, I will pie/pin/bypass. If engaged, I will engage while making entry (risk mitigation done through speed and violence of action)



    I am glad that worked out in your favor. Any other details you would like to share?
    Life’s a risk.

    How many opposed /potentially opposed rooms have you entered in real life (not SIMs) ?

    Have you ever been shot at (not SIMS) ?

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