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Thread: Viability of Pieing

  1. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    Which is totally fine, but someone thinking all of these tactics are built/developed off sim runs, or asking "what's the difference between pieing a doorway and a threshold clear?" Isn't really indicative of such experience or understanding.

    This is just weird. Have fun ya'll.
    If I don't know someone. I generally ask what they mean.

    Also threshold clearance, threshold assessment and pieing a threshold were all thrown out. I was attempting to narrow down what folks mean.

    In terms of sparking discussion. It was a wonked attempt on my part

  2. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post

    In terms of sparking discussion. It was a wonked attempt on my part
    No harm, no foul, all good. Not the first time you've been socially awkward.

  3. #113
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Are we done here, then? Or is this still some viable conversation?
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  4. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Are we done here, then? Or is this still some viable conversation?
    It's viable I think. I know the OP quite well and his intentions for gathering information were honest even if his attempts at doing so were misplaced. AMIS was referenced as a common point for conversation not in any attempt to discredit me personally or professionally.

    He has genuine PERSEC issues that do require him to be vague. He has a firm command of tactics and poor social literacy. So.....there you go. It can be viable discussion though probably frustrating, indirect and obtuse. I'm gonna bow out.

  5. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Are we done here, then? Or is this still some viable conversation?
    I think that the conversations is definitely still viable.

    This is likely going to sound very rambling and obvious but it’s my way of showing how I’ve come to my preferences. Since we’re mostly talking about the private citizen context of solo cqb, the most likely use cases I can think of running into these situations are in an active shooter incident or in a home invasion/coming home to what looks like a burglary in progress. OP, I agree with you in that there might not be a need to enter every room on your route and some rooms can by bypassed, but that would depend on your goals and circumstances. Your speed will also depend on the circumstances.

    In an active shooter incident, most gun carriers’ goal would be to exit safely while being prepared to engage the shooter if they happen to find the shooter between themselves and the exit. In that case, rooms can definitely be bypassed because those rooms aren’t the exit. There are also non-LE and non-mil private citizens who carry firearms daily and will definitely make it their mission to search for and engage the shooter. That’s just how they’re wired. In that case some kind of stimulus, such as gunfire would dictate which rooms can/cannot be bypassed.

    In the home invasion/coming home to what looks like a burglary in progress concept, rooms being bypassed depends on what’s in your house. If you’re home and someone kicks your door in, the two most commonly recommended courses of action are bunkering in a designated safe room, or getting out of there and getting outside. If there are loved ones such family and friends in the house, then the mission becomes their safety. You can’t hunker down in your hardened bedroom if your toddlers are in their rooms down the hall. You’ll have to work your way to them to protect them. You might be able to move quickly, or you may not, depending on the layout of the home and whether the door that’s been kicked in is on the way to your loved ones. Same thing if you come home from work, the door is wide open, and your living room looks like it’s been tossed. If there are family members who are supposed to be inside, I don’t know too many people who would wait for the police to get there, knowing that their loved ones might be in danger inside. Can you bypass rooms? Maybe. Maybe there’s some stimulus like sound letting you know where the bad guys are or where your loved ones are. Maybe there isn’t and you need to enter every room to find your loved ones.

    My concern with dynamic entry into uncleared rooms is that the only time I like being surprised is when I’m watching a movie. I don’t like entering rooms that might contain danger without a clue as to what I’ll find. It would suck to dynamically enter a room and find yourself facing multiple home invaders in different spots while you’re just armed with your daily ccw gun. It’s much less of a concern if I’m entering that room as part of a team of four because everyone will be covering a field of fire. Solo, you’re not able to effectively cover all those fields of fire. Threshold evaluation/pieing/clearing the room from outside, would take out a lot of that surprise. You can clear most of a room from the outside so that when you make your entry, your field of fire is directed at the most likely area for the threat to be, the place you couldn’t clear from outside.

    I really like the pieing concept, even though everything went out the window during my AMIS and I found myself basically entering the room with the bad guy in it at a run.
    My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.

  6. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    My concern with dynamic entry into uncleared rooms is that the only time I like being surprised is when I’m watching a movie. I don’t like entering rooms that might contain danger without a clue as to what I’ll find. It would suck to dynamically enter a room and find yourself facing multiple home invaders in different spots while you’re just armed with your daily ccw gun. It’s much less of a concern if I’m entering that room as part of a team of four because everyone will be covering a field of fire. Solo, you’re not able to effectively cover all those fields of fire. Threshold evaluation/pieing/clearing the room from outside, would take out a lot of that surprise. You can clear most of a room from the outside so that when you make your entry, your field of fire is directed at the most likely area for the threat to be, the place you couldn’t clear from outside.

    I really like the pieing concept, even though everything went out the window during my AMIS and I found myself basically entering the room with the bad guy in it at a run.
    Don't be surprised then. That's a mindset thing

  7. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    Don't be surprised then. That's a mindset thing
    That’s nice. It doesn’t actually address the concern of finding yourself in a room containing multiple hostiles whose location you had no information on prior to entering the room, though. What are your options at that point? Stand and deliver and hope you can burn them all down before you get dog piled or shot to death? Run back out of the room and face the same possibility of being shot through the wall that leads you to dislike pieing to begin with? Hope the bad guys are intimidated enough to comply with your commands? It sounds like every option sucks, which is kind of the running theme in solo cqb.
    My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.

  8. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    That’s nice. It doesn’t actually address the concern of finding yourself in a room containing multiple hostiles whose location you had no information on prior to entering the room, though. What are your options at that point? Stand and deliver and hope you can burn them all down before you get dog piled or shot to death? Run back out of the room and face the same possibility of being shot through the wall that leads you to dislike pieing to begin with? Hope the bad guys are intimidated enough to comply with your commands? It sounds like every option sucks, which is kind of the running theme in solo cqb.
    Hopefully this doesn't turn into a rah rah football chant. But you have to dominate the environment. This is done through imposing your will on that room.

    If you are surprised going into a room. You were not ready for a fight. If you were not ready for a fight that's a mindset thing.

  9. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    But you have to dominate the environment. This is done through imposing your will on that room.
    Totally agree. I've been lucky enough to do some training lately with guys from the country's "premier civilian LE counter-terrorism team" or whatever they're referred to. I can't really describe watching them enter a room...it's unreal.

    "Rent hallways, own rooms." They totally dominate the room.

    Of course, that's in a team environment, too.

  10. #120
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    Midwest
    Outside of my lane re the technical topic at hand. I know just enough to know how much I do not know and have no intention of clearing/pieing/entering anything absent lives being at stake.
    Shoot House runs at Gunsite, Thunder Ranch and at TAC-CON with Tom Givens et al. set that stage, agency training where I was an invited guest took it the rest of the way.


    I get PERSEC/OPSEC etc. Having said that, if that is really driving the train, then why are you on a publically available forum at all?


    I cannot help but think how much of the ya ya in this thread could have been avoided if the OP had said:

    "I have been to these types of classes with folks x, y and z. Based on those experiences and my own cogitatiations, I have these questions/concerns/comments etc."


    I beg a plankholder indulgence as I trained with our founder on multiple occasions, was considered a friend and was speaking with him on the phone the day this forum went live in Feb 2011.


    I have been participating in firearms oriented forums pre 2000. I am seeing the beginnings of a pattern on PF that is disturbing here in the 10th year of operation.

    "Possible" Troll Lite Behavior is exhibited by an OP. SMEs and others in the know, giving the benefit of the doubt, engage. OP then whatabouts the responses. When asked for bonafides by others, admittedly ball breaking by some, but mostly trying to establish context, gain understanding, perspective etc., by said SMEs/serious students of the art, OP acts cagey and doubles down on "Possible Troll Lite Behavior." SMEs and others in the know say to themselves- pass and unplug from the thread.

    This pattern repeats itself over a few topics and soon, folks who really really know what they are doing, move on.

    I view this place as special. I view this place, the SMEs and others as Professors at the University of the Uniquely American Art of Pistol/Weaponscraft because of the SHARING, REDISCOVERY and CREATION of this KNOWLEDGE given their respective WORK and EXPERIENCE in the area.


    FWIW, YMMV greatly.
    Last edited by vcdgrips; 02-24-2021 at 11:23 AM.
    I am not your attorney. I am not giving legal advice. Any and all opinions expressed are personal and my own and are not those of any employer-past, present or future.

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