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Thread: Viability of Pieing

  1. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    I’m not trying to be difficult but you aren’t addressing my point again. I understand the idea of dominating an environment. I just happen to think that clearing as much of a room as you can from the threshold allows you to dominate the room more than entering it with no knowledge of what you might find inside. “Dominate your environment” is one of those things that sounds great to say but isn’t really a plan, it’s an end-goal. It’s like when people tell you to “just stand up” if you find yourself grappling with someone on the ground. It’s not that easy when you’re confronted with opposition that doesn’t want you to “just stand up” or “dominate your environment.”

    Your main concern with pieing seems to be that you’re setting yourself up to take rounds through walls and door frames. My concern with dynamic entry is that you may be setting yourself up to be in a position of great disadvantage with very little time to respond to your newfound circumstances which could lead to multiple crappy options. One of those is you ducking back out of the room and taking rounds through walls and door frames. Another one is you being stuck in a room and absorbing a lot of incoming rounds. Several people have already mentioned that the trend towards pieing prior to room entry didn’t come from Sims scenarios. It came from dudes in Iraq and Afghanistan dynamically entering rooms and suddenly finding themselves face to face with a machine gun emplacement that they would have been able to see prior to entry had they tried to clear the room from outside first.
    Not at all. That is part of the discussion thing. Dont worry, I wont demand your biography.

    From one of my earlier posts I laid out my tactical thought process. The driving considerations are 1) Do I have to go into that room 2) Do the walls stop bullets.

    There can be multiple reasons that you "have to go into that room". Whatever that driving force is, If I have to go into a room. Im going into that room. Pieing, IMO, is fairly easy to be compromised while doing. The atmospherics that can be stacked against you are amazing. Lighting, noise etc. Now, I have a bad guy, who maybe was unaware, but now way more aware of my presence. This gives him the time and ability to fix me with fire. If I had to go into that room, I now am in a deficit getting into a slug match. Could you sneak up on a door and shoot some dudes with them never knowing. 100%. IMO that is something easier said than done. So to stack the odds in my favor, Im going to do (IIRC) what Craig teaches in AMIS and use dynamic movement in an attempt to draw the muzzle traverse. Also referred too as running rabbit. I am now relying on me setting the pace of the fight. This coupled with people suck at shooting moving targets and tend to shoot where you were...

    You also brought up, what if there are multiple guys in that room...Well...if there are multiple guys in that room, and you are pieing the door. Im not sure how you think that is going to go down...They dont just stand there and let you take them one at a time. The simplest answer is they all do a mag dump at the door....

    Next you mentioned Afghanistan and Iraq. Structures in those parts of the world are drastically different in terms of how the interact with bullets. There are numerous other things at play that I will not discuss. But those are part of a tactical thought process and escalation of force .

  2. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by vcdgrips View Post
    Outside of my lane re the technical topic at hand. I know just enough to know how much I do not know and have no intention of clearing/pieing/entering anything absent lives being at stake.
    Shoot House runs at Gunsite, Thunder Ranch and at TAC-CON with Tom Givens et al. set that stage, agency training where I was an invited guest took it the rest of the way.


    I get PERSEC/OPSEC etc. Having said that, if that is really driving the train, then why are you on a publically available forum at all?


    I cannot help but think how much of the ya ya in this thread could have been avoided if the OP had said:

    "I have been to these types of classes with folks x, y and z. Based on those experiences and my own cogitatiations, I have these questions/concerns/comments etc."


    I beg a plankholder indulgence as I trained with our founder on multiple occasions, was considered a friend and was speaking with him on the phone the day this forum went live in Feb 2011.


    I have been participating in firearms oriented forums pre 2000. I am seeing the beginnings of a pattern on PF that is disturbing here in the 10th year of operation.

    "Possible" Troll Lite Behavior is exhibited by an OP. SMEs and others in the know, giving the benefit of the doubt, engage. OP then whatabouts the responses. When asked for bonafides by others, admittedly ball breaking by some, but mostly trying to establish context, gain understanding, perspective etc., by said SMEs/serious students of the art, OP acts cagey and doubles down on "Possible Troll Lite Behavior." SMEs and others in the know say to themselves- pass and unplug from the thread.

    This pattern repeats itself over a few topics and soon, folks who really really know what they are doing, move on.

    I view this place as special. I view this place, the SMEs and others as Professors at the University of the Uniquely American Art of Pistol/Weaponscraft because of the SHARING, REDISCOVERY and CREATION of this KNOWLEDGE given their respective WORK and EXPERIENCE in the area.


    FWIW, YMMV greatly.
    I was hoping for discussion without having to state resumes, experiences etc.

    I have been personally attacked in this thread multiple times. Not once have I demanded peoples backgrounds, experience levels to deem them worthy of input on a subject. This is a discussion forum.

  3. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    OP was messaging me and I think it's mostly water under the bridge.



    Right. The guy we hired to start our tactics program back "in the day" was a plankholder for Delta. His acceptable speed for room entry is something that can only be described as a full-out sprint.

    However, most guys in LE and the military are not cut from the same cloth as a member of Delta, and most people can not pull-off that performance regardless of using manly words. In which case, we run into what Dan brought up:



    ...and a quick analysis of your average tactical team doing dynamic entry under fire turns into a cluster fuck instead of "dominating". Plenty of videos in the open of this happening...first guy is a true believer and goes leroy jenkins, fully committed, and everyone else starts fighting from the doorway. So, the industry developed tactics to play to our aggregate advantages rather than place us in a losing position.

    Moreover, I also see the OPs primary concern with catching rounds through the wall. In which case, I've thought the proper answer to that is stack dispersion, not dynamic entry. If you can catch rounds from blind fire through the wall, how well is it going to work when you're opposing aimed rounds through a small, definable danger area (the doorway).......and you're not at the performance level of an SMU? How's that speed work when your breach isn't 100% clean?

    Reality is that even if you are a human capable of SMU level performance, you're not going to reach it if your day job isn't that job, full-time, with those resources. There's no way you're getting the average patrol cop, the average fed, the average SRO, or even the average full-time tactical team up to that standard. Thus enter the tactics developed which has served the majority of the industry well in actual use.
    If speaking from a team environment, stack dispersion is going to kill combat power and your ability to get the guys where they need to be to support one another. If you are making entry.

    If you mean by stack dispersion, using a dude as BAIT...well..hey...it works

    If this topic is going to transition to team based applications of pieing that would be another subsection.

    This is going to sound cunty, and I promise its not. How often are people in the INDUSTRY, getting "combat" reps in these matters? Judging by where I guess you work at, its a possible COA.

  4. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Tactics are context dependent. It was during a surround and call out which is outside the context of your OP.
    Nice edit.

    Im not talking about a tactic. I was simply saying how bullets go through walls.

    Thats fact. The tactic/context if it was a cordon and search, or a high risk warrant or whatever the context is irrelevant. Bullets go through walls. That is the point I was trying to make.

    The context could have been a dude cleaning his glock and shoots it through his apartment wall killing the grandma next door....

  5. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    Right, so to TGS' list of people who won't perform at the Delta level, add you and me - members of the target demographic for AMIS, at least the open enrollment courses. One of the circumstances that drives the "it depends" factor in how do you address this situation is personal attributes, including experience, skillset and athleticism. Not everybody who finds themselves having to clear a structure or, let's make it as real as it's ever likely to get for some of us, their house because there's an actual overriding reason to do that instead of nopeing on out of that situation, is the guy who can rush the room without being surprised, kill everybody that needs killing and not kill someone they really, really, really don't want to.
    Again, to me thats a mindset thing. Anyone, who puts their mind to it, can cultivate mindset.

    Hell, just read Starship Troopers or any of Steven Pressfields books if you want to start learning about mindset.

    This constant notion of "being surprised" when clearing a house. Thats straight up bad to go. Surprise is a lack of discipline and mental control which is going to equate to you being jumpy and likely shooting people who dont need to be shot.

  6. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Spot on. IME cognitive load is very much a thing for “regular people” and cognitive overload further cuts into mental “processor speed.”

    Saw some of this last night at work during low light training. Stacking shooting, light management, use of cover, and target ID produced some interesting results as the task stacking increased the cognitive load.

    Clearing a big chunk of a room from outside / threshold reduces the cognitive load vs simply dumping into the room dynamically and having to process everything at once.

    In a team environment that load is spread among the team members and distraction devices are usually used to buy additional time to process the room.

    So even if a threshold is concealment rather than cover, the benefits of reducing cognitive load before entering a room are real for solo / regular people.
    That is absolutely true. As in previous posts. People can easily be over whelmed by circumstances. Which is why training needs to occur.

    Lets flip this map around from the enemy's perspective. What is harder for him to react too?

    In a gross attempt to simplify this to something everyone should be able to relate to:

    Imagine you are playing paintball. You have an inclination a guy is around a corner.

    What do you do? You sight in on that corner...

    What is an easier target. When the guy slowly creeps his head around the corner, OR goes darting out.

    In addition to cognitive load. Something that is exceptionally challenging is seeing things in different focal planes. Meaning seeing deep/into things. That is a incredibly hard skill that is very high on the CPU demand. To pie effectively, you need to be doing that.

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    If speaking from a team environment, stack dispersion is going to kill combat power and your ability to get the guys where they need to be to support one another. If you are making entry.
    I think that's a very dogmatic take on an open stack that isn't particularly well supported by its use in real life from various organizations.

    One of the things you keep bringing up is whether these organizations are actually getting in gunfights. Again, since you're secret squirrel and we don't know what your context is, nor the experiences you're speaking from as a contextual basis which we don't have.....I think you might be surprised how often police get into shootings, particularly busy police tactical teams. They absolutely have relevant experience and why they're doing stuff a certain way, and it totally varies from locale to locale. Talking with dudes from those teams is often much more enlightening that talking to most .mil types. At one of my prior assignments, we had our tactics instructors from our primary training center come up and run us through rehearsals in preparation for a huge warrant service. We then brought them into the places we hit after they had been searched, and they understood why certain things they were teaching weren't working in our locale (NYC). They really appreciated it, and I think it was a good learning point for an already excellent group of instructors.

    In this thread, you've consistently group everything you don't value into a category of "well they must not have the real world experience I have" and taking an absolutist stance on various tactics, which is weak sauce regardless of whatever praise Craig seems to hold for you...and why a lot of people here are finding it particularly difficult to converse with you. As @BehindBlueI's described, this isn't a particularly useful conversation.

    p.s. regarding where I work, I don't think you have the right idea. I won't post openly because that would put my account here under work's social media policy, but I'm an open book in PMs (in which you've already stated you don't care).
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    Nice edit.

    Im not talking about a tactic. I was simply saying how bullets go through walls.

    Thats fact. The tactic/context if it was a cordon and search, or a high risk warrant or whatever the context is irrelevant. Bullets go through walls. That is the point I was trying to make.

    The context could have been a dude cleaning his glock and shoots it through his apartment wall killing the grandma next door....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving...0disadvantage.

    Moving the goalposts (or shifting the goalposts) is a metaphor, derived from goal-based sports, that means to change the criterion (goal) of a process or competition while it is still in progress, in such a way that the new goal offers one side an advantage or disadvantage

  9. #139
    Not an SME at all so I'm learning good information from the thread overall.

    That said, OP: what are you looking to get out of this thread? You have multiple folks with field experience saying: it depends on context and providing reasoning on that context. If you're just going to keep pushing back on any solution that doesn't agree with your preconceived stance are you really getting anything out of this? Is it a dialog or a monolog you're looking for?

  10. #140
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    OP states:
    "I was hoping for discussion without having to state resumes, experiences etc. I have been personally attacked in this thread multiple times. Not once have I demanded peoples backgrounds, experience levels to deem them worthy of input on a subject. This is a discussion forum."

    I would respectfully assert your premise is flawed. There are people whose lack of background and experience (and training and education) deem them unworthy of input on a subject absent disclosure and/or caveats.


    All opinions on a given subject are not remotely equal.

    Based on SN vouching for you, you undoubtedly know more about room clearing than I do or ever will.

    Be safe and well.
    I am not your attorney. I am not giving legal advice. Any and all opinions expressed are personal and my own and are not those of any employer-past, present or future.

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