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Thread: Viability of Pieing

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    Hopefully this doesn't turn into a rah rah football chant. But you have to dominate the environment. This is done through imposing your will on that room.

    If you are surprised going into a room. You were not ready for a fight. If you were not ready for a fight that's a mindset thing.
    I’m not trying to be difficult but you aren’t addressing my point again. I understand the idea of dominating an environment. I just happen to think that clearing as much of a room as you can from the threshold allows you to dominate the room more than entering it with no knowledge of what you might find inside. “Dominate your environment” is one of those things that sounds great to say but isn’t really a plan, it’s an end-goal. It’s like when people tell you to “just stand up” if you find yourself grappling with someone on the ground. It’s not that easy when you’re confronted with opposition that doesn’t want you to “just stand up” or “dominate your environment.”

    Your main concern with pieing seems to be that you’re setting yourself up to take rounds through walls and door frames. My concern with dynamic entry is that you may be setting yourself up to be in a position of great disadvantage with very little time to respond to your newfound circumstances which could lead to multiple crappy options. One of those is you ducking back out of the room and taking rounds through walls and door frames. Another one is you being stuck in a room and absorbing a lot of incoming rounds. Several people have already mentioned that the trend towards pieing prior to room entry didn’t come from Sims scenarios. It came from dudes in Iraq and Afghanistan dynamically entering rooms and suddenly finding themselves face to face with a machine gun emplacement that they would have been able to see prior to entry had they tried to clear the room from outside first.
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  2. #122
    10.3" Master Race TGS's Avatar
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    OP was messaging me and I think it's mostly water under the bridge.

    Quote Originally Posted by TC215 View Post
    Totally agree. I've been lucky enough to do some training lately with guys from the country's "premier civilian LE counter-terrorism team" or whatever they're referred to. I can't really describe watching them enter a room...it's unreal.

    "Rent hallways, own rooms." They totally dominate the room.

    Of course, that's in a team environment, too.
    Right. The guy we hired to start our tactics program back "in the day" was a plankholder for Delta. His acceptable speed for room entry is something that can only be described as a full-out sprint.

    However, most guys in LE and the military are not cut from the same cloth as a member of Delta, and most people can not pull-off that performance regardless of using manly words. In which case, we run into what Dan brought up:

    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    I’m not trying to be difficult but you aren’t addressing my point again. I understand the idea of dominating an environment. I just happen to think that clearing as much of a room as you can from the threshold allows you to dominate the room more than entering it with no knowledge of what you might find inside. “Dominate your environment” is one of those things that sounds great to say but isn’t really a plan, it’s an end-goal. It’s like when people tell you to “just stand up” if you find yourself grappling with someone on the ground. It’s not that easy when you’re confronted with opposition that doesn’t want you to “just stand up” or “dominate your environment.”
    ...and a quick analysis of your average tactical team doing dynamic entry under fire turns into a cluster fuck instead of "dominating". Plenty of videos in the open of this happening...first guy is a true believer and goes leroy jenkins, fully committed, and everyone else starts fighting from the doorway. So, the industry developed tactics to play to our aggregate advantages rather than place us in a losing position.

    Moreover, I also see the OPs primary concern with catching rounds through the wall. In which case, I've thought the proper answer to that is stack dispersion, not dynamic entry. If you can catch rounds from blind fire through the wall, how well is it going to work when you're opposing aimed rounds through a small, definable danger area (the doorway).......and you're not at the performance level of an SMU? How's that speed work when your breach isn't 100% clean?

    Reality is that even if you are a human capable of SMU level performance, you're not going to reach it if your day job isn't that job, full-time, with those resources. There's no way you're getting the average patrol cop, the average fed, the average SRO, or even the average full-time tactical team up to that standard. Thus enter the tactics developed which has served the majority of the industry well in actual use.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    Just to check if I am tracking correctly now. We have established bad guys do shoot through walls/doors/intermediate barriers/ concealment.

    That can be a trained action, if the bad guy knows ballistics. Or an untrained action, in that he is firing wildly and rounds may strike a wall.

    I tend to revert to training for fighting trained people vs untrained people. In the old CQB adage "speed, surprise, violence of action". If you lose one. You need to make up for it. Where as if maneuvering in a hallway, if indications are I am about to take contact and withdrawing is not an option, then it becomes a game of speed.

    All this revolves around what the situation is feeding you. These are the sorts of things I guess I was hoping to discuss.
    Tactics are context dependent. It was during a surround and call out which is outside the context of your OP.
    Last edited by HCM; 02-24-2021 at 11:26 AM.

  4. #124
    happy sharps enabler Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    I think that the conversations is definitely still viable.
    Concur. We need to let this one play out. OT, but one of the things that has inexorably been bogging down the conversational level of the forum is the fact that we are now a—relatively—mature group. Even the educators, nurses, tier-one life science research nerds, and classical musicians have availed themselves of training—in no small part because of P-F—that would have been the tactical envy of LE even 20 years ago. That’s why we all talk about shit that isn’t related to training these days. This is one of the more interesting shooting problem threads we’ve had all year, and we’ve all been online a lot. JMO.

    I admit that this opinion isn’t entirely altruistic. This is about as close as a guy like me will get to a debate like this, so let’s see where it leads, and what we can learn.
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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    Reality is that even if you are a human capable of SMU level performance, you're not going to reach it if your day job isn't that job, full-time, with those resources. There's no way you're getting the average patrol cop, the average fed, the average SRO, or even the average full-time tactical team up to that standard. Thus enter the tactics developed which has served the majority of the industry well in actual use.
    Quote Originally Posted by Totem Polar View Post
    This is about as close as a guy like me will get to a debate like this, so let’s see where it leads, and what we can learn.
    Right, so to TGS' list of people who won't perform at the Delta level, add you and me - members of the target demographic for AMIS, at least the open enrollment courses. One of the circumstances that drives the "it depends" factor in how do you address this situation is personal attributes, including experience, skillset and athleticism. Not everybody who finds themselves having to clear a structure or, let's make it as real as it's ever likely to get for some of us, their house because there's an actual overriding reason to do that instead of nopeing on out of that situation, is the guy who can rush the room without being surprised, kill everybody that needs killing and not kill someone they really, really, really don't want to.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by TC215 View Post
    Totally agree. I've been lucky enough to do some training lately with guys from the country's "premier civilian LE counter-terrorism team" or whatever they're referred to. I can't really describe watching them enter a room...it's unreal.

    "Rent hallways, own rooms." They totally dominate the room.

    Of course, that's in a team environment, too.
    Important point - what works with a team (and distraction devices etc) may not be optimal for a single person without those tools.

  7. #127
    10.3" Master Race TGS's Avatar
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    Just to be clear, the tactics my agency is taught is based heavily off JSOC input. My organization has had to form ad-hoc teams with JSOC personnel and perform in extremis personnel recovery in an opposed environment (particularly in soft walled interiors), and it worked out favorably.

    I mention this to highlight that it's not an either/or situation. The tippity point uses this stuff too, as appropriate, and from what we are instructed they are actually briefed on our tactics, capabilities and limitations for the purpose of working together in a post-2011 environment.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  8. #128
    IS WHAT PLANTS CRAVE BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    Right. The guy we hired to start our tactics program back "in the day" was a plankholder for Delta. His acceptable speed for room entry is something that can only be described as a full-out sprint.

    However, most guys in LE and the military are not cut from the same cloth as a member of Delta, and most people can not pull-off that performance regardless of using manly words.
    I've mentioned several times that our patrol rifle program was created in consultation with some very high level military guys. It had to be modified simply because we are not good enough to get away with what they get away with. I am not as physically fast, not as fast on the gun, not as accurate, and do not have a squad of my bestest friends who are just as good on tap to assist.

    Which is why I don't think much of anything is getting done in this thread except spinning in the mud. There's zero context to the questions and the 'what ifs' span everything. Literally every question has only one realistic response: It depends. Until a context is nailed down this thread is a blind men/elephant scenario even if every poster is an SME.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    Maybe with talented students I would lube up with baby oil and then go at it.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    Right, so to TGS' list of people who won't perform at the Delta level, add you and me - members of the target demographic for AMIS, at least the open enrollment courses. One of the circumstances that drives the "it depends" factor in how do you address this situation is personal attributes, including experience, skillset and athleticism. Not everybody who finds themselves having to clear a structure or, let's make it as real as it's ever likely to get for some of us, their house because there's an actual overriding reason to do that instead of nopeing on out of that situation, is the guy who can rush the room without being surprised, kill everybody that needs killing and not kill someone they really, really, really don't want to.
    Spot on. IME cognitive load is very much a thing for “regular people” and cognitive overload further cuts into mental “processor speed.”

    Saw some of this last night at work during low light training. Stacking shooting, light management, use of cover, and target ID produced some interesting results as the task stacking increased the cognitive load.

    Clearing a big chunk of a room from outside / threshold reduces the cognitive load vs simply dumping into the room dynamically and having to process everything at once.

    In a team environment that load is spread among the team members and distraction devices are usually used to buy additional time to process the room.

    So even if a threshold is concealment rather than cover, the benefits of reducing cognitive load before entering a room are real for solo / regular people.
    Last edited by HCM; 02-24-2021 at 11:48 AM.

  10. #130
    happy sharps enabler Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Until a context is nailed down this thread is a blind men/elephant scenario even if every poster is an SME.
    Cataloging the possible contexts, in and of itself, is valuable. JMO.

    This subject, in terms of the wider training community, is still in its infancy. I sort of see solo structure movement as being where the UFC was in 1994. Sure there are people who are really good at it, but the skill sets are not widely known, let alone self-evident in terms of best practices.

    Bluntly, most of us are practicing TKD and Shotokan, and there’s jits to be had.

    I absolutely agree that what’s best for CAG is not what’s best for a sedentary fart like me who’s had to deal with more than one lockdown (including an incident caused by one of my own students). Let’s hash out some best practices, across a variety of potentials, eg. wood/drywall vs mud/stone or .mil vs. patrol. Everyone has their own reasons for wanting to know more.
    ”It's important to remember that ALL news media is a consumer product. Just like soda and fast food, they don't have any incentive to make it good for you, just addictive enough for you to keep coming back for more.”
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