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Thread: Viability of Pieing

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Some thoughts re: ALERRT

    1) keep in mind what ALERRT is and who the intended audience is. Itís not a SWAT school, itís not DARC and you are not really the target audience.

    2) ALERRT is specific to active shooter response which normally occurs in public or commercial buildings rather than residences.

    3) As mentioned, the instructors make a difference. The ALERRT ďmothershipĒ is local to me so like UNM most of my exposure has been via their paid instructor cadre vs ďsum doodeĒ from an agency with a 4 day instructor cert. who only teaches 1 or 2 times a year.
    I have been to a SWAT school or two, and I have trained some SWAT guys. My current agency is small, with ZERO SWAT capability. But the training requirement is real, and for patrol cops that aren't gun-n-run types, with limited time and training resources ALERRT checks a box. If it were my decision I would send everyone to the traveling instructor school for the information and the reps. Even if they failed (an actual possibility in my experience, sorry Louis!) they would be better served than by most patrol scenario training, and with less investment than sending everyone to SWAT school and dealing with their failures there. It is not SWAT. It is eye opening, with a bunch of PHDs and BTDTs trying to put on a portable, lowest common denominator type in extremis training. I'll take it, because right now it is all available.

    pat

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    As discussed here in the thread on the FL FBI shooting it was not a SWAT or purely tactical operation. They had a search warrant but not an arrest warrant and there were legal and investigate reasons why they did what they did vs optimal tactics.
    I have no beef with or have the slightest clue as to much of the background.

    I raised that as a point:
    Bad guys can target through intermediate barriers

    A majority of small arms can achieve effects through a majority of domestic structures

    Interesting side note: IOT wifi cameras as possible early warning or increasing SA for a barricaded shooter

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    I have no beef with or have the slightest clue as to much of the background.

    I raised that as a point:
    Bad guys can target through intermediate barriers

    A majority of small arms can achieve effects through a majority of domestic structures

    Interesting side note: IOT wifi cameras as possible early warning or increasing SA for a barricaded shooter
    Cameras are new - just more common:


  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post
    Sure man I can totally relate to hard thinking on layovers. You're not coming off as cunty at all.

    We've had disagreements, "spirited discussions" and one memorable shouting match about pretty much any topic you can imagine. Interior movement, ECQ shooting, knife work, fighting in cars. I meant LITERALLY everything. For the most part my content is well received but some guys simply don't agree. In only one case did it get kind of personal when a former commando got tooled up by another in an evolution and the guy screamed at me that we had no business doing this anyway because he'd be shooting people and not rolling around on the floor.

    Well that sounds like this discussion so far. We are on par for the course then.

    Checked your schedule, didn't see an AMIS. I will keep checking. Always good to freshen up.

  5. #85
    FWIW, 4 different FBI SWAT teams took rounds through a door in 2020.

    There was video released a few days ago that showed NYPD ESU taking rounds through a door.

    During the Chattanooga terrorist attack a few years ago, the bad guy put rounds through the wall every time he approached a doorway.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by TC215 View Post
    FWIW, 4 different FBI SWAT teams took rounds through a door in 2020.

    There was video released a few days ago that showed NYPD ESU taking rounds through a door.

    During the Chattanooga terrorist attack a few years ago, the bad guy put rounds through the wall every time he approached a doorway.
    At least one took rounds through the exterior wall of a mobile home in 2018.

    Doors / Doorframes keep being mentioned but IME shooting through walls is as common or more common among those switched on enough to shoot through cover/concealment

  7. #87
    In an interesting case from Baltimore about two weeks ago, a deputy U.S. Marshal was shot through I believe a closet door. He and/or other officers with him returned fire and killed the subject (he was a security guard at a grocery store who shot it out with police a few days before when he was apparently upset with the paycheck the store gave him!).

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by TC215 View Post
    That's interesting. I went through the ALERRT active shooter training a couple years ago, and thought it was, hands down, the worst, most ridiculous training I've ever been through. Totally could have been the instructors; I'd have to look at the curriculum more.
    I donít think Iíve ever been to a course where I didnít pick up something, but I didnít get much out of their course, either.

    One of the problems was the actual ALERRT guys were pretty dogmatic, and we had several folks who just couldnít sit back and pay attention to them teaching ALERRTís way of doing things.

    It took me a couple years plus teaching courses of my own to finally figure out that if I signed up to come to your class, I was coming to see/learn what you had to offer, not to convince you to do it my way.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    OP, Iím curious if you actually watched the video HCM sent or if you dismissed it outright because you donít believe in the validity of lessons learned from sims training.
    One of the problems with validating tactics with SIMS training is that everyone there knows they are there to at least do a SIMS simulation. You canít get around that.

    If you notice, there were specific instructions given to the roleplayers as to what actions they should take. IMHO, when you have folks staged looking at the door (second assailant) waiting to ambush the entry team you have set up a, while not unheard of, fairly unlikely scenario designed to get the results you want.

    A more realistic scenario would have been to have both offenders focused on the innocent and not reacting until they see the officers or hear a shot. Even then, their focus is unrealistically on listening and looking for the officers out of the corner of their eye. And use virgins (explained later).

    The being said, when properly executed, sim drills can be instructive in developing tactics. For example, after doing all the geometry on what movement would serve best to give officers the advantage in close range encounters, I chose to do SIM drills to validate my beliefs and prioritize training.

    My belief was that diagonal movement into the threat, off the threat axis, would cause the suspect more reactionary delay and make them work harder to engage than lateral movement, diagonal movement back, or movement straight back.

    In order to test this I set up a field contact scenario. I stood the officer facing the subject at three yards. The subject was informed to drop their ID to the ground and aggressively reach behind their back for the pistol in their waistband and shoot the officer on my signal. I briefed the officer that upon perception of threat, they were to drive in diagonally, left or right, and engage the subject when appropriate. Neither the officer nor the subject knew the otherís instructions.

    I also realized something important, in order to validate the tactic, I had to do each rep with Ďvirginsí because otherwise they would know what the otherís role and response was.

    I think you have to keep things like this in mind when you are using sims to validate techniques.

    JMO, YMMV

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    Lube? As in 'this is as good as a lube thread?
    No, this is better than a lube thread. Thereís a lot to see if one is looking. And that goes double for folks like me who have interest, but no expertise. Iím digging the shit out of this thread.

    My only concern is how expensive itís going to get by the time I can get to some good open coursework for a couple of viewpoints. This place never fails to give the gift of top ramen for a month.

    JMO.
    ĒIt's important to remember that ALL news media is a consumer product. Just like soda and fast food, they don't have any incentive to make it good for you, just addictive enough for you to keep coming back for more.Ē
    -Nephrology

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