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Thread: Viability of Pieing

  1. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Coyotesfan97 View Post
    Hopefully suppress the suspect’s fire until they can pull back to LCC. For us it was usually the BATT or the Bearcat.

    You mentioned running rabbit. It’s probably different but when I went through the JTF6 CQB course in 1996ish running the rabbit was sending one operator running across a wide hallway or room to see if he drew fire. No one wanted to be the rabbit.
    So my kicker is Taking fire through a doorway. You are at that doorway (relatively speaking) your position is largely known (excluding the use of wifi cameras).

    A guy inside that structure could be all over the place giving you little if any indication of his firing position.

    In the domestic sense, that's a hard target to supress and maintain any degree of accountability on rounds fired.

  2. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    Can't discredit that which lacks credit to begin with.

    It's probably more an attempt to establish merit, given that your argument really doeent have nothing else to stand on.
    I'm not trying to establish credit. To me, there is not much need in doing so.

  3. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    They absolutely can be. But given your travel schedule I'm sure you can relate to sitting around at an airport thinking on things.

    Why do these commandos disagree with you?

    I'm not trying to be a cunt so, if it comes off like that. It's not my intent
    Sure man I can totally relate to hard thinking on layovers. You're not coming off as cunty at all.

    We've had disagreements, "spirited discussions" and one memorable shouting match about pretty much any topic you can imagine. Interior movement, ECQ shooting, knife work, fighting in cars. I meant LITERALLY everything. For the most part my content is well received but some guys simply don't agree. In only one case did it get kind of personal when a former commando got tooled up by another in an evolution and the guy screamed at me that we had no business doing this anyway because he'd be shooting people and not rolling around on the floor.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by TC215 View Post
    That's interesting. I went through the ALERRT active shooter training a couple years ago, and thought it was, hands down, the worst, most ridiculous training I've ever been through. Totally could have been the instructors; I'd have to look at the curriculum more.
    ____________________________

    I'm still not sure what the point of this thread is. I've always said what @Dan Lehr said: "A way, not the way." When you do this stuff for real, in a team environment, you learn pretty quick there's not one solution for every problem and you need a lot of different tools in your toolbox.
    Some thoughts re: ALERRT

    1) keep in mind what ALERRT is and who the intended audience is. It’s not a SWAT school, it’s not DARC and you are not really the target audience.

    2) ALERRT is specific to active shooter response which normally occurs in public or commercial buildings rather than residences.

    3) As mentioned, the instructors make a difference. The ALERRT “mothership” is local to me so like UNM most of my exposure has been via their paid instructor cadre vs “sum doode” from an agency with a 4 day instructor cert. who only teaches 1 or 2 times a year.
    Last edited by HCM; 02-23-2021 at 12:27 PM.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    Does the proliferation of IOT Home camera systems dictate a change in potential approach?

    It does make my point because a guy, shot through a wall, delivering lethal effects on a target.
    Cameras definitely change the game.

    FL is not the only example. The Las Vegas gunman set up a camera on a room service cart outside his room.

    The point was people shoot at what they can see - using enablers like cameras, NODS etc. to see doesn’t change that.

  6. #76
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    So my kicker is Taking fire through a doorway. You are at that doorway (relatively speaking) your position is largely known (excluding the use of wifi cameras).

    A guy inside that structure could be all over the place giving you little if any indication of his firing position.

    In the domestic sense, that's a hard target to supress and maintain any degree of accountability on rounds fired.

    Absolutely. You asked for effects of if they did it not whether it could be justified. Our policy allowed suppression fire but it was pretty restrictive as far as where that would be directed. Mostly hard targets on the structure like brickwork or the foundation. Legal didn’t like the term suppression fire and it our range staff came up with a different term right before I retired and I forget what is called now.
    The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.* Thucydides 471BC

    "Hey! Let's be careful out there." Sgt Phil Esterhaus played by Michael Conrad

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    So my kicker is Taking fire through a doorway. You are at that doorway (relatively speaking) your position is largely known (excluding the use of wifi cameras).

    A guy inside that structure could be all over the place giving you little if any indication of his firing position.

    In the domestic sense, that's a hard target to supress and maintain any degree of accountability on rounds fired.
    As discussed here in the thread on the FL FBI shooting it was not a SWAT or purely tactical operation. They had a search warrant but not an arrest warrant and there were legal and investigate reasons why they did what they did vs optimal tactics.

  8. #78
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    If we could identify external surveillance equipment on a structure it was generally taken out before the approach to the door. Beanbags or SAGE rounds work well on cameras.
    The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.* Thucydides 471BC

    "Hey! Let's be careful out there." Sgt Phil Esterhaus played by Michael Conrad

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyotesfan97 View Post
    Absolutely. You asked for effects of if they did it not whether it could be justified. Our policy allowed suppression fire but it was pretty restrictive as far as where that would be directed. Mostly hard targets on the structure like brickwork or the foundation. Legal didn’t like the term suppression fire and it our range staff came up with a different term right before I retired and I forget what is called now.
    Usually “directed fire.” Return fire is “directed” at the source of the fire rather than just suppressing an entire building of area.

  10. #80
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Usually “directed fire.” Return fire is “directed” at the source of the fire rather than just suppressing an entire building of area.
    Yes it was very similar to that.
    The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.* Thucydides 471BC

    "Hey! Let's be careful out there." Sgt Phil Esterhaus played by Michael Conrad

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