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Thread: Viability of Pieing

  1. #1

    Viability of Pieing

    Long time listener, first time caller:

    There seems to be some trends in the current training of singleton movement internal to structures for reducing risk through the utilization of pieing thresholds. Quite a few places preach the "weaponized geometry" or lack of belief in the fatal funnel, for driving their approach to this problem.

    Is this actually viable, practical, effective or efficient?

    Some concerns I have are:
    -Stance/posture/positioning seemed to be built around mitigation of being seen / "seeing more" vice being ready for a fight
    -Ability to deliver effective fire is sacrificed through the use of single hand pistol employment
    -Mistaking cover and concealment

    Curious as to anyone's thoughts on the subject.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Site Supporter Giving Back's Avatar
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    Never heard of her.

    But given the amount of dumb shit I’ve seen and heard come from people you’d think should know better, I wouldn’t be surprised that this is a thing.
    You can get much more of what you want with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone.

  3. #3
    10.3" Master Race TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    Long time listener, first time caller:

    There seems to be some trends in the current training of singleton movement internal to structures for reducing risk through the utilization of pieing thresholds. Quite a few places preach the "weaponized geometry" or lack of belief in the fatal funnel, for driving their approach to this problem.

    Is this actually viable, practical, effective or efficient?

    Some concerns I have are:
    -Stance/posture/positioning seemed to be built around mitigation of being seen / "seeing more" vice being ready for a fight
    -Ability to deliver effective fire is sacrificed through the use of single hand pistol employment
    -Mistaking cover and concealment

    Curious as to anyone's thoughts on the subject.

    Thanks
    I think you'll need to give a concise definition of what you consider to be cutting the pie or a threshold clear, because nothing I've been taught about such involves one-handed shooting or compromises proper stance....and, absolutely acknowledges the fatal funnel and works to mitigate such dangers....not ignore it.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    I think you'll need to give a concise definition of what you consider to be cutting the pie or a threshold clear, because nothing I've been taught about such involves one-handed shooting or compromises proper stance....and, absolutely acknowledges the fatal funnel and works to mitigate such dangers....not ignore it.
    What is the difference between the two?

    There are various examples in this video review of AMIS showing single handed engagements and some exaggerated firing positions.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    What is the difference between the two?

    There are various examples in this video review of AMIS showing single handed engagements and some exaggerated firing positions.
    Skimmed the video. It is apparently not actual video. Rather it is audio with various still photos taken by the person doing the AAR (who doesn’t seem to have much training themselves but good on them for getting into tactics early.

    If you listen to the audio when the one handed shooting image first appears the reviewer clearly states they are using a neck index technique with a hand held flashlight.

    Also AMIS is at least partially a force on force class with airsoft. I know everyone thinks they’re Billy bad ass but I guarantee if I follow you around taking photos and video as you work through a bunch of force on force evolutions there will be some very “exaggerated” images.

    Not sure what your background is in tactics but no one maintains perfect flat range stances while moving /engaging etc. and AMIS is specific to solo tactics vs the team tactics usually practiced in LE/MIL training.

    Based on your statements in your OP, you seem to have some fundamental misunderstandings about threshold evaluations which are not going to be addressed in an Internet forum.

    Maybe take AMIS from Craig Douglas or Weaponized Geometry (which is a specific course title) from Jon Dufresne?
    Last edited by HCM; 02-22-2021 at 05:14 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Skimmed the video. It is apparently not actual video. Rather it is audio with various still photos taken by the person doing the AAR (who doesn’t seem to have much training themselves but good on them for getting into tactics early.

    If you listen to the audio when the one handed shooting image first appears the reviewer clearly states they are using a neck index technique with a hand held flashlight.

    Also AMIS is at least partially a force on force class with airsoft. I know everyone thinks they’re Billy bad ass but I guarantee if I follow you around taking photos and video as you work through a bunch of force on force evolutions there will be some very “exaggerated” images.

    Not sure what your background is in tactics but AMIS is also specific to solo tactics vs the team tactics usually practiced in LE/MIL training.

    Based on your statements in your OP, you seem to have some fundamental misunderstandings about threshold evaluations which are not going to be addressed in an Internet forum.

    Maybe take AMIS from Craig Douglas or Weaponized Geometry from Jon Dufresne?
    Does the validation of force on force equate to real world results?

    ETA
    Threshold evaluations or clearing from the threshold?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    Does the validation of force on force equate to real world results?

    ETA
    Threshold evaluations or clearing from the threshold?
    IME yes FOF results both correlate with and improve real world outcomes. Things tend to get “exaggerated” when someone is shooting back.

    As for the second, I was trying to politely tell you tactics aren’t an appropriate discussion for open Internet forums.

    Security issues aside, tactics are better demonstrated than discussed. The semantics arguments alone make it a pointless exercise.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    IME yes FOF results both correlate with and improve real world outcomes. Things tend to get “exaggerated” when someone is shooting back.

    As for the second, I was trying to politely tell you tactics aren’t an appropriate discussion for open Internet forums.

    Security issues aside, tactics are better demonstrated than discussed. The semantics arguments alone make it a pointless exercise.
    From a validation using FOF with airsoft/utm/Sims internal to structures leads to a false idea of cover vs concealment. A majority of structures, internally, offer little ballistic protection. But will stop the Sim round of choice.

    "Tactics " then get developed based around that. Or at a minimum a false sense of security or effectiveness.

    And example being exaggerated stances at thresholds in an attempt to let the door frame eat the Sim rounds.

    Additionally, this is the "Tactics" forum in name which is why I brought up tactics.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    From a validation using FOF with airsoft/utm/Sims internal to structures leads to a false idea of cover vs concealment. A majority of structures, internally, offer little ballistic protection. But will stop the Sim round of choice.

    "Tactics " then get developed based around that. Or at a minimum a false sense of security or effectiveness.

    And example being exaggerated stances at thresholds in an attempt to let the door frame eat the Sim rounds.

    Additionally, this is the "Tactics" forum in name which is why I brought up tactics.
    So then why didn’t you ask that clearly in the OP ? I’m familiar with the argument you are making and don’t buy it for CONUS but it sounds like you already have this all figured out so why bother with playing games ?

    Going back to your OP questions:

    Some concerns I have are:
    -Stance/posture/positioning seemed to be built around mitigation of being seen / "seeing more" vice being ready for a fight -as TGS noted they are not mutually exclusive if done properly. Is this concern based on the AAR you linked ?
    -Ability to deliver effective fire is sacrificed through the use of single hand pistol employment in the AAR you linked the single hand fire is due to using a hand held flashlight technique so you are taking this out of context.

    -Mistaking cover and concealment - context dictates what is cover vs what is concealment.
    Last edited by HCM; 02-22-2021 at 06:00 AM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    So then why didn’t you ask that clearly in the OP ? I’m familiar with the argument you are making and don’t buy it for CONUS but it sounds like you already have this all figured out so why bother with playing games ?
    Not sure what you mean.

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