LPVOs in 2023 and beyond

[RhinoJM]

See, people often state opinion as fact.

So let's dive into this a little bit if you'll indulge me.

I love ergonomics and efficiency, it's kind of one of my strengths.

Your hypothesis #1:
Piggyback is slower than offset.

The extra considerations I have as a competition shooter are: what is the GUN doing in that time. I want the most stable gun and the simplest gun movement possible. That is a factor almost more important than anything else.

Here is a video with my setup.



With a piggyback, I'm just tilting my chin... gun doesn't move. Is it slower than an offset? I think I can tuck my chin faster than flare my elbow. Plus it doesn't move the gun.

What say you? Is piggyback slower?




Your hypothesis #2:
No benefit over LPVO throw lever.


Check this out:




I'm still not sold whether the T332 plus piggyback is a better option than an LPVO with slider... still testing and there are very specific situations where I would want this and you'd have to test under very specific conditions to exploit the benefits.

Half slide is... half the magnification so partial slide is 3x with the scope switch but I get the benefit of using my LPVO as a primary optic without offset or height over bore ergo issues. If I can basically have 3x on demand buried in the speed of a transition, that's huge for me.

We're clearly talking past each other.

Yes, a tilt of your chin (to transition to piggyback) is just as quick as a tilt of your gun (to transition to offset).

What is NOT just as quick is the target acquisition.
That is because with an offset, your cheek weld remains consistent.
Whereas with a piggyback, you must break cheekweld--losing a point of contact--reestablish, reacquire, and then reengage.

In your video, you flip your gun on its side to demonstrate the absurdity of offset.
In reality, the most absurd aspect was the needless, dramatic exaggerations.

Pls refer to the pic below to see how much the rifle needs to be tilted.



If piggyback were truly quicker, then that's what competition shooters would be running.
They're not. They're running offsets.
I rest my case.

........

In terms of "hypothesis #2" re: Throw Lever vs. Scopeswitch...

My point was that in any scenario where you need the zoom of your LPVO, you're going to be braced against a barrier.
So, your hand adjusting zoom--regardless of method--is burnt time until your hand can return back to supporting the rifle against barrier.
With the inclusion of an offset RDS, I can switch between magnification and RDS seamlessly while maintaining all support/points of contact.
Lastly, if you're not adjusting your zoom while on the move (BEFORE bracing to shoot), then you're never gonna make it.

[RhinoJM]

Offset is not always same the HOB, and it's not instantaneous; BS. You're still moving the gun to get on the optic and that takes time. Fractions of seconds but still. For the rest, as someone who has put dicks in the dirt using a 12 o'clock mounted red dot on an ACOG I'll call bullshit. Prime example? I myself have several deployments as an Infantry guy, plenty of combat from room distance to just under or around 200 yards. My account not good enough? No problem, how about service wide? 20 years of GWOT with a 12 o'clock mount on ACOG, suffice? No, prior to that? Okay... CCO's or their predecessors mounted to carrying handles which also got plenty of work done. Yep you guessed it, chin weld. How do you explain all the 1.93" mounts being used just fine? Spare the snark dude. The truth is that everyone is different from their body composition and construction right down to flexibility, vision and personal preference. Maybe the 45 offset is faster for some, maybe not but there are also other considerations and none of this trash matters when put into contextual usage but I digress. In competition we're talking milliseconds and it's not that freaking hard to find a 12 o'clock mount on a chin weld, give me a break.

I'd also be willing to bet a PF dollar that there are plenty of dudes who do it because some other dude on the internet did so or said it was better without putting it to a timer for themselves. Marketing and the psyops involved are also a thing but whatever. Without snark, everything needs to be put on a timer because they don't lie and don't have agendas or biases, yeah I know broken record. You shouldn't be making the claim that it's better for everyone. Context matters so let me color within the lines for you some more. In addition to the above facts here are some additional reasons to not go for an offset. 1. The first one you touched on but I would be remiss if I didn't mention it. Yes, night vision. 2. Secondarily they are a snag hazard, especially if you're wrong handed and have gear or use a 3 point which I have personally seen, (stupid yes but still a thing). 3. Offsets also don't play well with switching to the other strong side, (yes I like my crap to be totally ambi). 4. If you're shooting suppressed. Guess what. If you're right handed you've just smoked out and obscured your vision. 5. Lastly offset does not provide the best recoil control, everything is a trade off. Personally, no thanks.

I'll go ahead and keep my 12 o'clock on my shitty ACOG and give 0 FK's what some random dude says on the web because I've used it and it works. I'll also encourage others to do the same and stick with the 12. As for the switch it's interesting but I am unsure about them. I definitely wouldn't try to use one in anything other than a competitive environment but they are interesting none the less but again. They need to be put on a timer vs. everything else.

My goodness. Who pissed in your cheerios?

Pls refer to my previous comment, a succinct response to the gentleman, JCN.
I believe that addresses the majority of your claims as well.

Let me address your addressing of my points.
#1 We agree. This is why the military prefers piggyback over offset. Guess what? Neither of us are military. And I don't plan on getting NVG any time soon.
#2 Look at the pic I posted in response to JCN. That is not a snag hazard. Never has been for me. Certainly not even close to the snag hazard presented by literally any other attachment on your rifle.
#3 You're right. But there is NO SITUATION where you or I would be shooting on support side and need the offset. So, you're actually wrong.
#4 Look at my attached pic in previous comment. In no way does that offset subject you to any more gas exposure. Also, welcome to 2023. Get a flow-through can. The future is now, old man.
#5 Cheek weld is absolutely crucial for recoil control. Offset preserves cheek weld with no degradations in any of the other points of contact. Whereas piggyback can make you repeatedly lose sight picture due to compromised (or nonexistent) cheek weld.

Cheers!

[Mike C]

@RhinoJM, cool. You win.

[JCN]

If piggyback were truly quicker, then that's what competition shooters would be running.
They're not. They're running offsets.
I rest my case.

"Because that's the way we've always done it...."

That's not really "rest my case" material.

I'm a competition shooter, so I'm testing ergos. Did you know that in some sports and some stages, Max Leograndis DOESN'T RUN AN OFFSET....

So hear me out and try and suspend your preconceived notions.

When you're talking about your perspective, you have a certain sport in mind.

IS IT POSSIBLE that there are different shooting sports than the one you're thinking about in your mind's eye... and that the requirements for magnification, movement and engagement might be very different than what you're visualizing....


Here's some examples.

Say I take your 2 gun rifle and have you run an IDPA stage with it. All targets are <20 yards out. What's your distribution of optic use?

Now I take your 2 gun rifle and have you run a USPSA stage with it. All targets are <30 yards out and nothing really requiring slower than 0.30 splits.

Now I take a local PCSL 2 gun match. Farthest engagement distances on an upper torso target is 75 yards.

There are no barricades and everything is taken unsupported or on the move. Nothing requires more than 3x but it surely helps for those 75 yard targets.

Does that change your opinion on usage?

It does for me. It's going to depend VERY MUCH ON THE SPORT AND COURSE DESIGN.

What is NOT just as quick is the target acquisition.
That is because with an offset, your cheek weld remains consistent.
Whereas with a piggyback, you must break cheekweld--losing a point of contact--reestablish, reacquire, and then reengage.

I'm not sure how good of a long gun shooter you are, I don't mean that as an insult. I just don't know how good you are.

I'm a PCC GM in USPSA and it requires a lot of breaking cheekweld and getting back on target quickly. Same thing with entries and movement. It's like second nature and I'm very, very comfortable with it.



Also note that you often break cheekweld with movement into position anyway. So I'm not married to the cheek weld because a lot of transitions to a farther target require a broken cheek weld anyway without a dismount.

Also take my word for it, there are situations where I'm transitioning quickly and I want my normal neutral hand positions constant. I don't want to transition offset because it changes my transition performance and accuracy.

I may be talking about a different sport than you have anchored in your mind.

Without a context of how good you actually are, I can't really take your opinion with much weight. Because what you're saying about cheek weld in a transition doesn't seem to hold water to me.

Can you do a dry video to show me?

In terms of "hypothesis #2" re: Throw Lever vs. Scopeswitch...

My point was that in any scenario where you need the zoom of your LPVO, you're going to be braced against a barrier.
So, your hand adjusting zoom--regardless of method--is burnt time until your hand can return back to supporting the rifle against barrier.
With the inclusion of an offset RDS, I can switch between magnification and RDS seamlessly while maintaining all support/points of contact.
Lastly, if you're not adjusting your zoom while on the move (BEFORE bracing to shoot), then you're never gonna make it.

So again, you're thinking of a narrow application (that is different from my application).

With the scope switch, you can use the throw lever manually just like you would normally.

It just gives you extra options.

I personally would like a 2x zoom at 75 yards and would use it if available. I can get better hits that way and if I can bury the slider movement in the transition, I'm going to do that.

(Later this week I’m going to test some stuff and set up some targets at my range, I’ll do video but probably post in my journal to spare clutter).

[JCN]

@RhinoJM

Maybe so I address things more specifically, can you spell out the following for me and I can use those targets and splits to see how the piggyback works?

Give me three target dimensions and distances and the splits / transition times you’d expect one to make and I can run them with piggyback and see if it works.

[stomridertx]

One thing I've learned is that this forum has some of the best shooters in the world present, and dictating absolutes to this audience doesn't end very well for preconceived notions or ego. Things I used to think were absolutely true change often as I progress in this world of shooting. I used to think an offset dot with an LPVO was dumb, now I run probably the most expensive mount out there to accomplish having an offset dot. I can foresee applications and builds where I'd rather have it at 12 o'clock, like JCN's example or an SPR build where I'd use the dot to get on a long range target quickly. Part of the fun in being a serious shooter is constantly trying new things, evolving, and figuring out what works best for what we want to do. The offset dot has a lot of advantages and some cons, the same goes for 12 o'clock. Where I'm personally at right now is preferring an offset for an LPVO with both having an identical height over bore. If I was running an MPVO or a prism, I think I'd prefer the 12 o'clock but I haven't ventured into that area just yet.

[BK14]

“Competition shooters don’t use piggy backs” while talking to a competition shooter using a piggy back.

“There’s never a reason to shoot offset, offhanded” I’ve done it…. Heck, I’ve competed and won a mid-sized closed enrollment match with a piggy back too.

There’s a metric ton of knowledge from SMEs on this board, but instead we’re running around speaking in absolutes showing our ignorance? Cool.

I’ve used just about every configuration of LPVO, mount heights, offset, piggy back, etc while in a work capacity, regularly training, and shooting a few matches. I’ve got my preferences, but ultimately with training most options will function.

I don’t like high mounted LPVOs. I don’t like my left eye’s vision being obstructed running an offset. I don’t like the reduced cheek weld of a top mounted dot. But with enough time any of those obstacles can be overcome. Train, find what works for your context. Avoid absolute statements.

[JCN]

@stomridertx
@BK14
@Mike C

I love you gents.

Very well said and stage design and sport heavily influence equipment, I think.

There are no absolutes and context (and skill level) matters too.

In case anyone was wondering about the way the scope switch works and the way it would work on a support position, I made a video.



I kind of think it would work well, but I don't have enough longer range 2 gun experience to say.

[JCN]

I like testing….

Got my 9mm analog set up tonight.



They’re within 3 ounces of each other.

Plus this way I can bang away without annoying neighbors, destroying my steel targets or fragging myself up close.

I might still run 9mm frangible as it’s lighter anyway.

Looking forward to a nice range session tomorrow where I can test the scope switch a little more.

To not clutter the thread I’ll probably post in my journal.

[TWR]

Please forgive a stupid question but what about the red dot in your scope?

I just remember “you have to have daylight bright reticle, be able to shoot occluded, use it as a red dot etc. etc.”
I have a cousin that runs 6.5-20 scopes on his AR’s and two years ago we had a good snow and while pig hunting, he found them bedded under cedar trees but getting that close he was handicapped with the 6.5-20. I rigged him up an offset red dot and it worked great for him.

I’m a coyote hunter and have never shot competitions with my AR just some pistol matches. I’m trying to see what all the fuss is over offset or piggyback vs just leaving the scope on 6X (I have a 1-6) and using the daylight bright dot in my scope. I know that shooting occluded will result in your shots being off the further you get but I’m just curious.