LPVOs in 2023 and beyond

[HCM]

No it isn't, and I don't understand why it keeps coming up in the LPVO conversation because it can get really close. The LPVO does so many great things including improving accuracy, target acquisition, having a good reticle for different distances, and less exposed mechanicals to deal with.

I caveat that because many don't put in the work, are disappointed and blame the LPVO for the work they didn't do.

[Caballoflaco]

Not an LPVO, but 9 hole reviews did a video about using some of the new micro prisms scopes similar to how you can use a magnifier to extend range with a red dot.

[03RN]

So I have spent the last 12 years of my shooting life thinking red dots never look perfect. While I bought a magnifier and found out that magnified red dots look like a bunch of grapes to me. Can't even tell which of the eight dots is the 2 moa dot. I figure this makes sense, I prefer 6 moa pistol red dots because it actually looks like a dot to me. That has me wondering about the arrangement I want on my 13.9.. I do not want to run only a rds, the area that I live in is wide open and heavily foilaged so you need some type of magnification usually to figure out what you are looking at.


So, I have come to the conclusion that I either need to set this rifle up with an acog and rds (like my 16 inch), set it up with a lpvo and rds, or try the 6 moa h2 and a magnifier.. hmm

The more I shoot with my 3x PA micro prism the more I'm thinking about switching over all my optics to them. Including my 2.5-10 on my spr and rds on my carbines.

[breakingtime91]

The more I shoot with my 3x PA micro prism the more I'm thinking about switching over all my optics to them. Including my 2.5-10 on my spr and rds on my carbines.

Do you like it more than say a 4x acog?

[shane45]

On the LPVO performance compared to a RDS. My shooting partner and I deep dived into this extensively about 10 years ago. We personally owned a great deal of optics. We ran them all on the clock. The results were perplexing. They just didnt make sense! I was designing and making optics mounts at the time and through my manufacturing partner I had access to some serious engineers/scientists at places like S&B. When i posed the results and my questions about them, the answer I received made it all make sense. And this may be whats missing from these kinds of discussions. What didnt compute was that we are pretty equivalent shooters. But our timed results with different optics types were wildely different in some cases. The answer for this given by some people with Phd's in their title was that it had nothing at all to do with the optics or setup. It was rooted in what the individuals brain could accept or not accept as the provided sight picture. In some setups my brain was way more accepting to the input than his was and vice versa and that showed clearly in the times. So my testing and research indicates what may work great for one individual may work horribly for another. My times with a LPVO vs his were drastically different. His brain rejected the sight picture. Our times with RDS were comparable. Our times with things like ACOGS were comparable at some distances bit not others. His Acog performance would drop off much earlier than mine would as distance decreased.

Just my experiences, research and beliefs. Maybe someone will find this info useful.

One other side note. We also found that LPVO held a huge advantage over non mag RDS for target acquisition in some specific lighting conditions where the sun was ahead of you casting shadow on the target area.

[GyroF-16]

I’ve noticed that different RDS’s have different appearances to my eye. I have a Holosun HS503G 16” AR, paired with a Holosun magnifier. The 503G has a ACSS reticle with a chevron at the top (like an ACOG). The reticle is quite small, but easy to use with magnification. I can adjust the magnifier diopter so that both the target and the reticle are in sharp focus.
In contrast, when I put that (QD) magnifier on another rifle with an MRO, it was essentially unusable. Depending on diopter setting, the dot was either a “cluster of grapes” with the target out of focus, or an 8-10 MOA diagonal line with the target in focus.
I guess what I’m getting is that the right RDS paired with the right magnifier may well give you the outcome you desire.

So I have spent the last 12 years of my shooting life thinking red dots never look perfect. While I bought a magnifier and found out that magnified red dots look like a bunch of grapes to me. Can't even tell which of the eight dots is the 2 moa dot. I figure this makes sense, I prefer 6 moa pistol red dots because it actually looks like a dot to me. That has me wondering about the arrangement I want on my 13.9.. I do not want to run only a rds, the area that I live in is wide open and heavily foilaged so you need some type of magnification usually to figure out what you are looking at.


So, I have come to the conclusion that I either need to set this rifle up with an acog and rds (like my 16 inch), set it up with a lpvo and rds, or try the 6 moa h2 and a magnifier.. hmm

[Wake27]

On the LPVO performance compared to a RDS. My shooting partner and I deep dived into this extensively about 10 years ago. We personally owned a great deal of optics. We ran them all on the clock. The results were perplexing. They just didnt make sense! I was designing and making optics mounts at the time and through my manufacturing partner I had access to some serious engineers/scientists at places like S&B. When i posed the results and my questions about them, the answer I received made it all make sense. And this may be whats missing from these kinds of discussions. What didnt compute was that we are pretty equivalent shooters. But our timed results with different optics types were wildely different in some cases. The answer for this given by some people with Phd's in their title was that it had nothing at all to do with the optics or setup. It was rooted in what the individuals brain could accept or not accept as the provided sight picture. In some setups my brain was way more accepting to the input than his was and vice versa and that showed clearly in the times. So my testing and research indicates what may work great for one individual may work horribly for another. My times with a LPVO vs his were drastically different. His brain rejected the sight picture. Our times with RDS were comparable. Our times with things like ACOGS were comparable at some distances bit not others. His Acog performance would drop off much earlier than mine would as distance decreased.

Just my experiences, research and beliefs. Maybe someone will find this info useful.

One other side note. We also found that LPVO held a huge advantage over non mag RDS for target acquisition in some specific lighting conditions where the sun was ahead of you casting shadow on the target area.

This sounds reasonable based on my experience. The more I've messed with them and talked to others, the more they seem much more specific to each person than an RDS.

[03RN]

Do you like it more than say a 4x acog?

It's been a long time since I've used an acog so it's hard to say.

I'd probably say yes inside 50 yards. I like the PA Chevron/horseshoe reticle for fast acquisition. Past that it's probably a wash.

The ACOG will probably win the ruggedness category but I do like not having to send the optic in to get relamped. Just change the battery. And with the shake awake feature I'm leaving it on to see how long 1 battery lasts.

Plus it's a third the cost and almost half the weight. As long as it holds up I think it's the best GP optic out there.

In all my praise for it I will continue to hold it's long term ruggedness is the biggest unknown for an inexpensive Chinese made optic.

[TWR]

As well as the LPVO works, it will not be quite as quick as a red dot under 50 yards. Beyond that the LPVO takes over and doesn’t look back.

I have no experience with a prism and very little with a magnifier. My house gun has a red dot, Aimpoint H2, my grab and go guns have LPVO’s, Trijicon Credo 1-4’s and a 1-6.

[maximus83]

The more I shoot with my 3x PA micro prism the more I'm thinking about switching over all my optics to them. Including my 2.5-10 on my spr and rds on my carbines.

I'm not quite convinced to get rid of my LPVO's yet, but agree that the 3x PA microprism is a great little optic: tough, lightweight, clear. I'm currently experimenting with one mounted on a Tippmann M4-22, where the 3X is mounted on top, and I have an offset RDS on an Arisaka mount. I like this setup so much, I'm considering moving it to one of my AR's, though for me this still wouldn't do away with the need for an LPVO on other rifles for better observation/precision at distance. I'd see the PA as being a great option at typical ranges within 200y. In fact the PA is so good, it'd be tempting to dispense with the offset RDS and just run the PA by itself, to keep things more streamlined.