No more LEM?

[Nephrology]

That truth has ended more of my various platform dalliances than anything, although I enjoyed each journey a bit including LEM. HK LEM pistols have never let me down on accuracy or reliability, only my ability to perform my best. Mrs. Fatdog is not an enthusiast but she settled on USP/c LEM, so a couple of those are destined to stay.

I've just been too cheap to buy other plastic pistols that do basically exactly the same thing as the glocks I already own. All the modern plastic guns are kind of the same to me. I think the last non-Glock 9mm I owned was a pair of shields I traded in for G43s back in 2017 I think.

For this reason I will not miss the LEM. I hardly knew ye.

[GJM]

My argument for the LEM trigger is as follows. The USP FS and HK45C are totally vetted .45 Super launchers, and the LEM trigger is the best HK trigger available on these two pistols that is suitable for field pistol use. My argument for 9mm LEM pistols is as under caliber trainers. Beyond that, it is hard for me to argue for LEM pistols given all the amazing alternatives available now, that are as reliable and accurate, but shoot better on the timer.

[TheNewbie]

My argument for the LEM trigger is as follows. The USP FS and HK45C are totally vetted .45 Super launchers, and the LEM trigger is the best HK trigger available on these two pistols that is suitable for field pistol use. My argument for 9mm LEM pistols is as under caliber trainers. Beyond that, it is hard for me to argue for LEM pistols given all the amazing alternatives available now, that are as reliable and accurate, but shoot better on the timer.

How shootable is the standard DA/SA HK trigger in your opinion? In the USP series and he 45c.


For example, while Cajun gun works surely make the P-07 better, I find the trigger good enough as is for a DA/SA. It's been so long since I have tried an HK DA/SA that I can't remember how "bad" they really are or compare them to something like the P-07.

[GJM]

How shootable is the standard DA/SA HK trigger in your opinion? In the USP series and he 45c.


For example, while Cajun gun works surely make the P-07 better, I find the trigger good enough as is for a DA/SA. It's been so long since I have tried an HK DA/SA that I can't remember how "bad" they really are or compare them to something like the P-07.

When I was shooting a DA/SA USP FS, I pulled that trigger so much in dry fire I injured my finger. It is really heavy in DA! !

The DA/SA in the USP Compact is decent and I might prefer that over LEM in that pistol. I really don’t care for the position of the thumb safety on the HK45C, so the slick side LEM is more appealing. For field use, which can involve gloves or cold/wet/muddy hands, I prefer no thumb safety.

[M2CattleCo]

The hammer geometry on the HK TDA doesn’t allow for much reduction in mainspring power before they get unreliable.

The main beef I always had with them is that the obscene trigger weight coupled with the flexy plastic trigger shoe made for a miserable shooting experience.

[RevolverRob]

The last two posts here demonstrate why I'll be sad to see LEM go (if it goes in the US Market).

TDA HKs are just inferior to the LEM and inferior to other TDAs. The placement of the thumb safety is also inferior to a 1911/BHP.

It would appear to me the thumb safety HK designed for the VP9 over in Europe is significantly different in terms of ergonomics and placement. It looks much more "1911'ish". If HK could bring that safety design to their hammer fired guns they might have something.

[JonInWA]

My argument for the LEM trigger is as follows. The USP FS and HK45C are totally vetted .45 Super launchers, and the LEM trigger is the best HK trigger available on these two pistols that is suitable for field pistol use. My argument for 9mm LEM pistols is as under caliber trainers. Beyond that, it is hard for me to argue for LEM pistols given all the amazing alternatives available now, that are as reliable and accurate, but shoot better on the timer.

George, I don't disagree with anything that you're saying, but I think that the point of LEM is that it gives you an extended margin to stop the firing sequence-as well as also self-decocking. Unless you have an exceptionally high skill level coupled with LEM use, other systems simply are better for speed/timer shooting. A measure of LEM is not how quickly you can shoot, but how effectively you can be in deciding not to shoot in a high pressure scenario.

The self-decocking furthers the duty application in that it furthers the inherent application of safety in re-holstering in a dynamic situation; for example, quickly, safely and effectively transitioning to a different weapon when applicable-but concurrently (and probably by necessity, very speedily) stowing the pistol. Concurrently, it also gives you a new starting point if you need to re-initiate the firing sequence with the pistol.

For those into the gun games, unless you're into honing your expertise with your LEM duty pistol, most (read virtually all) will be better with a VP for example, with a short SFA triggerpull and quick reset (and a Glock's reset point is even quicker)(as is a 1911, etc).

Best, Jon

[TGS]

RE: HK DA/SAs vs other DA/SA guns...

My performance is notably better with the SIG P229 and Beretta 92 compared to HK DA/SA, and at half the mental concentration.

No matter what, I couldn't jerk a round off target with my P229 even if I tried. I was so used to such large errors with the HK that when I got issued a P229, I would "call" my shots and think I had missed a given scoring zone when in fact with the P229 I'd still be well inside the given scoring zone. At one point I tried mashing the trigger as poorly as possible to intentionally shoot sloppy, and I still couldn't produce the wildly thrown shots that I would routinely get with the HK if I wasn't 100% on my game with every single trigger pull.

To me personally, the seeming ability to throw shots in an extreme manner was the most off-putting factor to the HKs, and in hindsight now that we're talking about it I think it's a legitimate reason to not use the gun. Given the advent of the SCD and the changes to the Gen 5 Glocks that I prefer greatly over previous gens, it's a no brainer for me these days if I were to leave LE service: I'd buy a Gen 5 Glock with a SCD and call it a day. Training for precision at 25 yards with the Ameriglo Agents took some deliberate training, but once I got past that barrier the performance is undeniable. On a 200 Drill, I would usually shoot 130 out of 200 with the HK, 140-160 with the SIG P229, 170-180 with the Beretta 92, ~180 with the S&W Model 19 K-frame, and with the Glock 19M it's a smooth 170-180.

Keep in mind that I was training harder and more often with the HK than I have with any of the other guns....800 rounds per week with the HK compared to 200-400 per month that I've done the last few years. It's simply astonishing, the difference in both 1) on-demand performance and 2) returns on investment in training. I can shoot markedly better for a fraction of the effort, and when I have a "bad day" my chances of underperforming or (worst case) smoking a bystander are substantially less.

Like any good Pistol-Forum'er, I still have and hold my beloved spaghetti-blaster as it's simply a piece of phenomenal engineering and fun to shoot. I haven't touched the HK in 6 years, and will finally be putting it up for sale as I make room for 1911s.

The main beef I always had with them is that the obscene trigger weight coupled with the flexy plastic trigger shoe made for a miserable shooting experience.

Ah, yes.

1911=breaking a glass rod.
Geissele SSA AR15=breaking a crisp carrot.

HK?

Wet potato chip.

"Guns are tools, not toys" yada yada yada...but at the end of the day, I want to enjoy the guns I own...and there's something to be said for enjoying the gun you're training with, and not viewing it as a chore because it's so unenjoyable to shoot.

[RevolverRob]

Gn applieorge, I don't disagree with anything that you're saying, but I think that the point of LEM is that it gives you an extended margin to stop the firing sequence-as well as also self-decocking. Unless you have an exceptionally high skill level coupled with LEM use, other systems simply are better for speed/timer shooting. A measure of LEM is not how quickly you can shoot, but how effectively you can be in deciding not to shoot in a high pressure scenario.

The self-decocking furthers the duty application in that it furthers the inherent application of safety in re-holstering in a dynamic situation; fo example, quickly, safely and effectively transitioning to a different weapon when applicable-but concurrently stowing the pistol. Concurrently, it also gives you a new starting point if you need to re-initiate the firing sequence with the pistol.

Best, Jon

But the flipside is many, myself included, found that even the LEM is unforgiving to irregular practice schedules or precision work even in slower cadence fire. For sure it's great to allow you to get off the trigger, but it's such a difficult system to produce good results with, without effort that really extends beyond reasonable.

By that I mean for me to get to 80% of my 1911 skills with an LEM it took me 12-months of 4x weekly dryfire and about 3,000 rounds. Flipside, I picked up a 1911 again and boom, like riding a bike. Like many I found myself loving many things about the trigger, except how damned hard it was to get results I was happy with.

[TGS]

But the flipside is many, myself included, found that even the LEM is unforgiving to irregular practice schedules or precision work even in slower cadence fire. For sure it's great to allow you to get off the trigger, but it's such a difficult system to produce good results with, without effort that really extends beyond reasonable.

By that I mean for me to get to 80% of my 1911 skills with an LEM it took me 12-months of 4x weekly dryfire and about 3,000 rounds. Flipside, I picked up a 1911 again and boom, like riding a bike. Like many I found myself loving many things about the trigger, except how damned hard it was to get results I was happy with.

I think a good way of putting this is:

Guns are for shooting things.

The gun needs to be good at shooting things before all else. That includes reliability and the ability to put rounds where you want them to go.

If either of those two factors are off, then it's not the gun for me. If "social management" is a major purchasing decision, I say get a regular DAO.....it'll shoot better, and "manage people" better to boot.