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Thread: JCN critiques cardboard targets

  1. #41
    Are the FPF training targets better anatomically? looks like there are two versions at action target (link)

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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post

    Can you guys confirm that anatomically, THIS is the area
    I would vertically elongate the B zone so your conclusion of a classic target's A zone shape seems spot on.
    Doesn't read posts longer than two paragraphs.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by scw2 View Post
    Are the FPF training targets better anatomically? looks like there are two versions at action target (link)

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    Hitting the triangle would likely be effective.
    But the way the heart is drawn, it still seems to be a little high anatomically speaking.

  4. #44
    I spent all last weekend in a force on force UTM and FX class. I took more hits in my hands and arms than anywhere else. Particularly when I was holding a pistol in a two handed grip in front of me.... Blocking almost all of what anyone would think of as the upper A zone of a classical target....If all you are doing is punching paper and not doing opposed force on force training with both shooters moving then it doesn't matter which target you use, to a degree.... Just make sure you can hit a three inch circle on demand and then put the rounds in to the best spot you can with the target you are presented.... good chance it won't be the optimal centered location you want it to be in, work with what you got... I love me some competition shooting but thinking that various zones correspond to anything other than scoring areas for the game is a false equivalency as far as I am concerned.
    "So strong is this propensity of mankind, to fall into mutual animosities, that where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions, and excite their most violent conflicts." - James Madison, Federalist No 10

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcbusmc24 View Post
    I spent all last weekend in a force on force UTM and FX class. I took more hits in my hands and arms than anywhere else. Particularly when I was holding a pistol in a two handed grip in front of me.... Blocking almost all of what anyone would think of as the upper A zone of a classical target....If all you are doing is punching paper and not doing opposed force on force training with both shooters moving then it doesn't matter which target you use, to a degree.... Just make sure you can hit a three inch circle on demand and then put the rounds in to the best spot you can with the target you are presented.... good chance it won't be the optimal centered location you want it to be in, work with what you got... I love me some competition shooting but thinking that various zones correspond to anything other than scoring areas for the game is a false equivalency as far as I am concerned.
    GREAT comment!
    I think the benefit of competition shooting is learning how much sight picture you need to break a shot on a particular large or small target.
    25 yard target full target is no different visually with a dot than a close head, etc.

    I would love to do Force on Force classes someday. Seems like the best training for my next step of defensive training.

    These kinds of randomly moving targets are kind of fun too for seeing what you need to see (or failing miserably as the case may be):


  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Givens View Post
    The B zone is located on the vertical centerline at armpit level. That represents the mass of major vessels atop the heart, including the aorta, pulmonary arteries, etc. The theory is those vessels cut or tear easily and then the heart pumps blood into the body cavity. Air goes in and out, blood goes round and round, anything else is bad.

    I won't argue anatomy with medical people. I will just say that people hit where the B zone is on this target tend to fall down pretty quickly and reliably.
    You don't need to argue, I 100% agree. In addition, the high thoracic allows cervical spin/upper thoracic spine hits, trachea hits, and it also could possibly hit above body armor.

    In addition, most people under stress miss low.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    From what I saw in the videos, her precious zone definitely was not hard cover.
    LOL! It wasn’t a no-shoot either.
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  8. #48
    Member John Hearne's Avatar
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    I'm not an expert and its' been a year since I stayed at a Holiday Inn but here's my take. (Current LEO and former EMS professional whose attended an autopsy or two and has studied this for a little while)

    First the heart itself is a poor target for instant capacitation. Being a big muscle, poking a hole in it leads to the muscle contracting around the hole and slowing the blood flow. An untreated heart wound will ultimately be fatal but it's likely from cardiac tamponade (heart sac filling with blood an limiting the ability of the heart to expand). The last I checked, the record for bullets to the heart with survival at the Memphis Trauma Center was six - no idea about caliber but, if you don't know who Stacy Lim is, you need to google her story and realize that heart shots aren't fight stoppers from a blood loss perspective.

    How rapid the blood loss is depends on several factors. First, the bullet has to hit something that has a lot of blood in it or moves a lot of blood - so shot placement is king. Second, that bullet has to penetrate deep enough to damage the vital structures, especially after punching through bone (which tends to favor heavier bullets). [To stake a minority position, given the viscous nature of blood, the size of the whole can matter so the size of the hole is a factor but not the most significant one.] Next, the most effective hits cause leaks where there are voids that can be filled. Once we realize the blood has to go somewhere, the vasculature at the top of the heart becomes a much more appealing target for rapid incapacitation. For this reason the, optimal handgun hit is fairly high in the chest.

    We also need to remember that the density of blood bearing pipes is strongly biased towards the center of the target. Hits that wander a little high or low will work better than hits that wander left or right - assuming a direct frontal shot. For this reason I prefer a target that has a vertically oriented rectangle for a hit zone as opposed to a circle. Chuck Pressburg made a great comment about using competition to prepare for fighting. I'm paraphrasing but it was "the biggest mistake is thinking the whole A zone matters when only about half of it does." In other words, for a chest shot a good hit is a lot more like 6x6" and not 6x11". If we had to pick which part of the USPSA A zone mattered most, I'd go with the top part.

    We can argue whether its right or wrong but the conventional wisdom is that all the "good stuff" is between the xiphoid process and the sternal notch vertically and between the nipples horizontally. The classic advice is to draw a horizontal line at arm pit level and a vertical center line down the middle.

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    Again, this is a fairly high hit. The Shoot Steel target stays pretty true to that description. I have a strong preference for a 8.5 x 5.5" zone which get the vertical orientation right and keeps the shots from wondering right/left. This is easily created by folding a letter size sheet of paper in half.

    The biggest issue I see with the Shoot Steel is that the head shape is a little "off." The neck looks a little long and the shoulders are very square so I suspect that is skewing the alignment that was attempted. Still that head has a set of ears which is useful set of landmarks to help align a frontal shot.

    I've had the best luck with taking existing targets and tweaking them to my preferences. The SCSO-08 is a pretty decent target. If you use the existing lines, you can drop a B-8 repair center on it and it aligns nicely.

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    These are the ideals that I use in classes. They print on letter size paper and stack directly on top of each other. Are these perfect - probably not down to the millimeter - but they are better than most.

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    You can also use the Shoot Steel as a decent blank slate to add what ever you want. This is what I came up with:
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    At the risk of shameless self-promotion, the 3-D problem needs to be taught but it isn't that hard to teach if you do it right. I've developed an entire one-day class that is primarily based on using the concept of tactical anatomy to create an increasing cognitive load on students.
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  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    I think we need to train people to identify the external landmarks on the human body that correlate with critical internal structures.

    What if you were to superimpose the male model image over the X-ray image?


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  10. #50
    ...when did Alpha Sierra get unbanned and change his name?
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