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Thread: JCN critiques cardboard targets

  1. #91
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    @revchuck38

    This is why I like the QIT-97

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    That’s the kind of target scoring zone I would be looking for in a gunfight if possible.

    There (IMO) isn’t a magic circle that’s predictable or reliable.

    That’s why I prefer scoring stripes rather than circle, but I understand for marksmanship small, round targets are often useful.

  2. #92
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    @JCN - That's like an IDPA target, but in color! And FWIW, I just got a box of 100 practice IDPA targets.

  3. #93
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by revchuck38 View Post
    If I ever have to do this for real, I'll be happy to hit center chest roughly at nipple/armpit level. I kinda doubt there'll be time for more precision. And since I'm still using iron sights, I won't be able to focus on a button.
    I went 'center mass' of what I could see, which was basically the chest tilted like this \ for me, the top of the slash being the right shoulder and the bottom being the left shoulder and my viewpoint from the bottom. The arm pit was a visible landmark. Ideally I could have went for a headshot, but with the shots I made a miss would go into his car, a miss on a headshot would have went toward officers.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  4. #94
    Member Zincwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    I guess people have different perspectives and motivation.

    I think the original target isn't a good one with respect to the B-zone placement. If you're on the upper edge of that zone, you can get "good hits" and not hit anything vital the way it's drawn.

    It's not rocket surgery to flip the B-zone circle to the lower part of the C-zone and is objectively a more anatomic location if you're going for upper heart / great vessels.

    If I don't print targets, does that make the target in question less wrong?

    People are saying they want to target the upper heart and great vessels. Sure, I'll buy that.
    But the B-zone is still too high and optimally would be either extending towards the bottom of their C or moved lower.

    But with regard to products on the market, I linked the 3D Birchwood Casey cardboard targets that when shipping is accounted for are only ~$0.50 more than the ShootSteel ones.

    So that's my productive contribution.

    The ShootSteel target isn't good IMHO from an anatomical perspective. It could be made better with a flip of the B-zone circle. I did give that feedback to the company.

    And I showed an alternate target that would be better from a training standpoint at nominal extra cost.

    You guys know that a number of students will take your word as gospel. I'd want my word to be as close to truth and accurate as possible, personally.
    How does this fly with the mantra of the golden triangle. The initial target in question appears to cover yes?

    Additionally we have the issue of size. Is this a full size target equivalent to a body? I say that as USPSA targets are simulations but not necessarily truly body equivalent.

  5. #95
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Even with clothes, identifiable landmarks exist. Arm pits and nose, for example.
    I was just shit posting for @okie john. Your post about your shooting is excellent.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  6. #96
    Just playing Devil's Advocate with this argument below. Since we're 10 pages in I'm hoping it will be all in good fun and not offend anyone to take a counter position:


    In my misspent youth (before I became a brittle old man) I devoted pretty much the entirety of my teens and early 20's trying to make the US Olympic team in TaeKwonDo. We kicked targets all day long. They were handheld paddle style targets shaped like small tennis rackets. Everyone on the state and national teams preferred the smallest ones with about a six inch striking zone. They were held and presented for kicking the way a boxing trainer works mitts for boxers only all the combos were kicks.

    The TMA (traditional martial arts) guys who did choreographed one step sparring drills, katas in the mirrors, and too much time lining themselves up in rows, loved the 3D "Bob" style freestanding heavy bags and always touted the anatomical accuracy and realism. They loved training the minutae of their striking game on those super accurate anatomical targets. Us sport guys literally laughed and scoffed at the Bob bags. I think I kicked one maybe 3 times in my life. But when it came time to actually kick a guy in the head who didn't want you to do it and was fighting back, it was us sport guys who were landing the head kicks.

    To give an example...
    In college I was there when the head instructor of the biggest traditional school in town brought in a few of us for a sporting seminar. The 6'1" 200 pound black belt head instructor decided to prove a point that their style of training was better and "more real" and padded up against one of our bantamweights (127 pounds). Said bantamweight took it easy and tapped at him with a few shots showing good placement and clean footwork to prove his point but the instructor wasn't having it and kept turning it up to 11. I watched the bantamweight literally shrug his shoulders, shake his head, slide back when the guy charged and casually reel off a sporting spinning hook kick at the instructors head and knock him lights out unconscious by wrapping the kicking leg around the back and using the point of his heal on the notch at the base of the skull just below the guys headgear (a legal shot in the sport at the time). The seminar continued that day but was never asked back.

    Because you could put your foot onto a small target with force at speed no matter where it was, you could translate that to... well, putting your foot there. We didn't need any details of a humanoid target, we kicked the target wherever and whatever it was. Be that shattering a beer bottle balanced on a deck rail as a juvenile party trick, or breaking a board balanced on someone's head for a demo, you didn't really need to practice that detail because your foot went where you sent it weather your were jumping, spinning, falling, turning, advancing or retreating.

    At the end of the day, all that anatomical target work just didn't help the TMA guys. The sporting approach of "hit your target whatever it is wherever it is fast" trumped all the anatomical accuracy and just didn't matter in this setting.
    -----------------------------------------------------


    Because of this I've always been an advocate of the sporting approach being the one that develops the skill the best through the crucible of hard training for competition. Because of that I approach this argument with a bit of "get good at shooting IPSC targets f#cking fast and the rest takes care of itself" hypothesis.

    So that's my "did the new guy just sh!t all over anatomical targets WTF?!?" devils advocate argument. I'm hoping since we're this far in it leads to a nuanced explanation of how this tool refines a better finished product in this discipline and isn't really intended to draw battle lines or piss off the traditionalists.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zincwarrior View Post
    How does this fly with the mantra of the golden triangle. The initial target in question appears to cover yes?

    Additionally we have the issue of size. Is this a full size target equivalent to a body? I say that as USPSA targets are simulations but not necessarily truly body equivalent.
    Asking as a point of clarification:
    Which targets are we talking about? The ShootSteel? Or the Birchwood Casey?

    In generalities, I don’t think size matters because of scaling and training. I do prefer that the proportions be correct-ish though. I practice with reduced size targets routinely... but I do use a red dot so focal plane issues don’t come into play.

    I’ve said it repeatedly, but I still think the Finding Your Line Levels 3-4 are some of the best drills because it addresses target size and speed very elegantly.

  8. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post

    Thank you for clarifying.
    But then wouldn’t the Birchwood Casey 3D target be super duper superior to the shoot steel target?

    Would you see those targets as being a negative because there aren’t scoring rings?

    Would the anatomy be sufficiently helpful in training that you could spray paint stencil a 4” center circle
    Or use a 3” paster circle on the sternum?

    $2 for a cardboard upper torso.
    $3 for a cardboard whole torso.

    Attachment 67471


    I have been using a version of that target produced by a local AZ company for a few years in my Close Contact Handgun and Entangled Handgun classes.

    They are useful, and illuminating especially when there is movement on the part of the shooter. However, I am not sure of their general utility. For newer shooters, I have found that making consistent hits is a tad bit more difficult. I am not totally sure why, but I think it may have something to do with such a target not having easily seen "marks" for the sights to find. I think for someone past that stage of the true fundamentals, they are good supplemental targets to be used in the rotation, but I would shy away from using them for every shooter every time.
    For info about training or to contact me:
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  9. #99
    Member Zincwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    Asking as a point of clarification:
    Which targets are we talking about? The ShootSteel? Or the Birchwood Casey?

    In generalities, I don’t think size matters because of scaling and training. I do prefer that the proportions be correct-ish though. I practice with reduced size targets routinely... but I do use a red dot so focal plane issues don’t come into play.

    I’ve said it repeatedly, but I still think the Finding Your Line Levels 3-4 are some of the best drills because it addresses target size and speed very elegantly.
    The Tom Givens target to be clear.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zincwarrior View Post
    How does this fly with the mantra of the golden triangle. The initial target in question appears to cover yes?

    Additionally we have the issue of size. Is this a full size target equivalent to a body? I say that as USPSA targets are simulations but not necessarily truly body equivalent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zincwarrior View Post
    The Tom Givens target to be clear.
    It looks like the ShootSteel target is just a torso only but reasonably close to actual human size.

    I think it’s a fine target to be clear. I don’t think it offers anything above a number of other targets to qualify it as being far superior, though.

    As a dual purpose semi-anatomy and semi-marksmanship target it’s just fine.

    Other targets I think have other advantages as discussed above. But it’s all about the trade offs.

    Stapling a VTAC target on an Amazon box works for me.

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