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Thread: What is most efficient way of becoming proficient

  1. #11
    Member MVS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyesquared View Post
    I agree that many people will never make it but I think that has more to do with their understanding of training, their mindset and their motivation than any physical attributes. Most people lack motivation, but the ones who have it often lack an understanding of how to train or simply lack the understanding of shooting needed to fix their shooting issues.

    I have age on my side but I have never considered myself to have natural talent with anything athletic or requiring hand eye coordination. I was one of those "always picked last in PE class" guys when I was a kid and for good reason. I'm not very strong either, I lifted weights very casually in college but wasn't disciplined enough to make any big gains, at best I sort of made up for my lack of physical activity in high school. My eyesight is actually terrible. Myopia worse than -15.00 in each eye (not a typo, without my glasses I have to hold things 2" in front of my face to read), and astigmatism on top of that. I am sure there are people who are more disadvantaged than me in terms of physical attributes but I would consider myself to be well below average in terms of "natural physical talent".
    Interesting. I have been shooting for decades. Until recently that was mostly "tactically oriented". A few years ago unhappy with my progress even though I had attended dozens of class and practiced frequently, I decided to compete. To my amazement I only classified "C" class despite being athletic, having good vision, and years of experience shooting. After that I found a mentor, bought every book, watched every video, dry practiced daily for 30-45 minutes using Steve Anderson program (and later Stoeger), once the weather allowed I was live firing 2-3 times a week 150-200 rounds a session. First with Seeklanders program then Stoeger. By the end of the next season shooting every match I could, becoming an RO, helping with set up, I had made it all of the way to, wait for it, B class. Whoopie. I was discouraged but kept working and was almost to A when I encountered health problems that stopped my shooting for almost 2 years. Just getting back into it heavy now.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by MVS View Post
    Interesting. I have been shooting for decades. Until recently that was mostly "tactically oriented". A few years ago unhappy with my progress even though I had attended dozens of class and practiced frequently, I decided to compete. To my amazement I only classified "C" class despite being athletic, having good vision, and years of experience shooting. After that I found a mentor, bought every book, watched every video, dry practiced daily for 30-45 minutes using Steve Anderson program (and later Stoeger), once the weather allowed I was live firing 2-3 times a week 150-200 rounds a session. First with Seeklanders program then Stoeger. By the end of the next season shooting every match I could, becoming an RO, helping with set up, I had made it all of the way to, wait for it, B class. Whoopie. I was discouraged but kept working and was almost to A when I encountered health problems that stopped my shooting for almost 2 years. Just getting back into it heavy now.
    I will say that classification is kind of fickle and there are certain things you have to embrace to get a good classification that probably run counter to all the tactically oriented training you did. In my experience if a good shooter shoots classifications with the attitude that they're "shooting safe" or if they try to guarantee alphas, the time ends up getting on top of them. The ratio of shooting to doing other stuff is pretty high on most classifiers so taking an extra tenth to aim each shot adds up extremely fast. Even if you have the raw skills to shoot at the next classification level it's easy to ruin it by shooting with the wrong mindset and trading too much time for "guaranteed" alphas. On top of all that it really depends on how many classifiers you get to shoot, so I tend to just use my match placement to judge where I'm at.

    I should also add that I spent a lot of time reading and watching videos to learn about shooting long before I ever touched a gun. I think there's still some old thread on here I made back when I was in living on campus about training with a SIRT gun and 0 live fire.
    Last edited by Eyesquared; 02-09-2021 at 09:12 PM.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MVS View Post
    Interesting. I have been shooting for decades. Until recently that was mostly "tactically oriented". A few years ago unhappy with my progress even though I had attended dozens of class and practiced frequently, I decided to compete. To my amazement I only classified "C" class despite being athletic, having good vision, and years of experience shooting. After that I found a mentor, bought every book, watched every video, dry practiced daily for 30-45 minutes using Steve Anderson program (and later Stoeger), once the weather allowed I was live firing 2-3 times a week 150-200 rounds a session. First with Seeklanders program then Stoeger. By the end of the next season shooting every match I could, becoming an RO, helping with set up, I had made it all of the way to, wait for it, B class. Whoopie. I was discouraged but kept working and was almost to A when I encountered health problems that stopped my shooting for almost 2 years. Just getting back into it heavy now.
    I never touched a gun until I was nearly 40 years old (end of 2015).
    Videos and books for learning.
    Shot timer and video early on.
    Used published standard tests to benchmark.

    Then went off and for enjoyment and education bought and familiarized myself with different calibers, modes of action, revolvers, etc so I could pick up any type of gun and know how it worked. I wanted a broad mechanical education on firearms so if I were ever in a situation where I had to use a gun that wasn't mine, I wouldn't be at a disadvantage.

    In mid-2019 I was getting bored, so decided to compete. Initial classification was "B" and made "A" six months after that.
    Four months later, I decided to start dry firing in earnest and put myself on a high rep, high focus efficient dry fire routine and made "M" two months after that.

    So 6 months to A and 6 months to M.

    Duration of practice doesn't guarantee results. Quality of practice does. Both for dry and live fire.
    I actively tried learning from every single trigger press and movement.

    But I understand the mechanics so much better than if I were passively listening to someone tell me something.

    Efficient way of becoming proficient?
    Don't make excuses for why you can't. Claw and fight for every opportunity to learn and improve. If you're not focused mentally, it's a waste of time. You should get done with practice emotionally and physically exhausted.

    Timer, video, red dot gun. Dry fire and confirm with live fire. Compare to published standards. Never say "that's good enough."

  4. #14
    I'm semi-joking when I mention this, BUT from my reading of the forum to this point, I would say that one of the best ways to become proficient is to eschew raising a family and most other pursuits. Not being critical in saying that, it just seems that many who post on here about attaining high classifications don't have the family load.

    Myself, I always thought I'd wait until the kids were grown, fortunately for me that didn't work out, as my second set of kids when I was mid-40's were a blessing.

    There are a few things I would have done differently:

    1) get outside the LE centric firearms community earlier and ventured to more competition oriented courses well before I actually did;

    2) shot USPSA at my first opportunity rather than waiting until my gun club started a league;

    3) spent my money earlier on a competition pistol and gear rather than relying on LE duty rig and pistol;

    4) developed a more USPSA oriented dry-fire program earlier, I had the books, just focused on LE related drills;

    5) this should probably be first and has been mentioned ad infinitum in this thread and others: actually push myself out of my established comfort zone.

  5. #15
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    Feb 2021
    I shot a gun for the first time around August 2018. My first purchase was picked up on October 1, 2018. First competition was July 13, 2019 and made GM in CO on September 13, 2020. At least 8 of these months were spent traveling with no gun.

    CO Progression:
    • 6/27/2020 - C (41.3320)
    • 7/26/2020 - B (71.3752)
    • 8/2/2020 - A (78.1085)
    • 8/16/2020 - M (85.9280)
    • 9/13/2020 - GM (96.0323)


    I took one Stoeger Skills & Drills class in March 2020, though, I don't think it was essential to my progress. This is because I already read everything that Stoeger wrote and experimented with the wealth of knowledge in his books.

    I do not know of anyone who has picked up a gun for the first time and reached GM faster than me (Stoeger, for example, initially classified as GM but he already had years of experience shooting). That being said, there are many ways to make this progression more efficient.

    My journey took roughly 770 days.
    1. Time to first purchase: ~60 days
    2. Additional time to first competition: 285
    3. Additional time to first dot usage: 301
    4. Additional time to GM: 127


    Theoretical improvements to bring total to around 121 days:
    1. Time to first purchase: 1
    2. Additional time to first competition: 30 (first month spent on gun manipulation and doubles)
    3. Additional time to first dot usage: 0 (compete with a dot from the get go)
    4. Additional time to GM: 90 (alternate between pure alpha and pure speed for stages)


    What's needed:
    • A mentality to be the best shooter in the world (nearly delusional level)
    • A highly observant individual that is always willing to adjust technique
    • A person who doesn't second guess his or her gear
    • Roughly 10K rounds (not so much where they're meaningless, but enough to understand how a gun behaves)
    • A mentor of the same mentality who has already knows how to shoot that can communicate the nuances of various techniques (Add at least 6 months if the person has to self-discover)
    • At least 4 hours a day that can be dedicated to shooting
    • An obsessed learner
    • All classifier match at the end (this can literally save 5 weeks, if a person can consistently shoot GM HF)


    All this assumes that making GM equates to proficiency.

  6. #16
    Hammertime
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    What is most efficient way of becoming proficient
    This is a much better question than the one I posed.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    I'm semi-joking when I mention this, BUT from my reading of the forum to this point, I would say that one of the best ways to become proficient is to eschew raising a family and most other pursuits. Not being critical in saying that, it just seems that many who post on here about attaining high classifications don't have the family load.
    That’s what I’m talking about regarding making excuses.
    I have a very demanding full time job, a toddler at the time I started competition and was basically a single parent for the year I went from B to M.

    It’s quicker if you’re young without other responsibilities, but seriously we are only talking about a 30-60 min daily dry fire commitment to make M... IF you have quality metrics and self assessment skills.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock26 View Post
    My journey took roughly 770 days.
    1. Time to first purchase: ~60 days
    2. Additional time to first competition: 285
    3. Additional time to first dot usage: 301
    4. Additional time to GM: 127


    Theoretical improvements to bring total to around 121 days:
    1. Time to first purchase: 1
    2. Additional time to first competition: 30 (first month spent on gun manipulation and doubles)
    3. Additional time to first dot usage: 0 (compete with a dot from the get go)
    4. Additional time to GM: 90 (alternate between pure alpha and pure speed for stages)


    What's needed:
    • A mentality to be the best shooter in the world (nearly delusional level)
    • A highly observant individual that is always willing to adjust technique
    • A person who doesn't second guess his or her gear
    • Roughly 10K rounds (not so much where they're meaningless, but enough to understand how a gun behaves)
    • A mentor of the same mentality who has already knows how to shoot that can communicate the nuances of various techniques (Add at least 6 months if the person has to self-discover)
    • At least 4 hours a day that can be dedicated to shooting
    • An obsessed learner
    • All classifier match at the end (this can literally save 5 weeks, if a person can consistently shoot GM HF)


    All this assumes that making GM equates to proficiency.
    Extremely impressive! Congrats!

    It’s interesting to note that if you take the 770 days of 4h/day and multiply that by 4 to bring it down to a casual 1h/day.
    That’s 3000 days or about 8.5 years.

    That seems about right.
    I think the theoretical 120 days might not be possible due to the limit of synapse formation and muscle strength / coordination. There is probably a limit of how fast one can build muscle memory.

    It is seriously impressive the dedication and hours you put in! Congrats!

  9. #19
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    Feb 2021
    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    Extremely impressive! Congrats!

    It’s interesting to note that if you take the 770 days of 4h/day and multiply that by 4 to bring it down to a casual 1h/day.
    That’s 3000 days or about 8.5 years.

    That seems about right.
    I think the theoretical 120 days might not be possible due to the limit of synapse formation and muscle strength / coordination. There is probably a limit of how fast one can build muscle memory.

    It is seriously impressive the dedication and hours you put in! Congrats!
    Thanks!

    As for the theoretical 120, I believe the absolute limit is ~2 days with the perfect individual. But at some point, the efficiency is not really due to the process but the raw talent of the shooter.

    I've spent quite a few hours thinking about this question. I think nearly everyone has the potential for GM proficiency, but everyone takes some amount of time to discover the correct mentality that is the catalyst for an efficient process. From the anecdotes of other GMs, progress seems to be split into two groups: (1) those who made GM quickly and (2) those who eventually made GM over many years. The only difference that I can gather is that the people in group 2 usually start off thinking that making GM is a fantasy. Once one truly believes that they are proficient, the actual proficiency seems to quickly follow.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    That’s what I’m talking about regarding making excuses.
    I have a very demanding full time job, a toddler at the time I started competition and was basically a single parent for the year I went from B to M.

    It’s quicker if you’re young without other responsibilities, but seriously we are only talking about a 30-60 min daily dry fire commitment to make M... IF you have quality metrics and self assessment skills.
    JCN, I'm happy for you. From what you've briefly written, your life hasn't been near as crammed as mine, but we think what we think.

    In terms of that’s what I’m talking about regarding making excuses what I said was simply a statement of what I felt is important, and the choices we make. Yeah, I could have squeezed in 60 minutes a day of dry fire, but to ME it wouldn't have been down time, and at the end of most of my days, downtime was what I needed.

    Now I'm 66, free and willing, we will see where it goes. As long as it doesn't interfere with grandkids, motorcycling or camping.

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