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Thread: Are Classes the Only Way to Become Proficient?

  1. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    out of here
    Agree that it seems to be what kind of learner you are.

    I would not want to be self taught in a vacuum.

    But with books, multimedia training, online discussion and videos from every expert and so-called expert under the sun it’s easier than ever to get access to the opinions of the best in the world.

    I think the main determinant of high handgun proficiency is critical self awareness and a commitment to training. How you do that isn’t as important.

    For people in the medium proficiency range, a class might be the best way to get up to speed.

    But I’m the kind of guy who wants to experiment with everything to see if I agree with the conventional wisdom.

  2. #12
    T Givens pretty much summed up my personal experience and thoughts on this topic. I will add just a few things:

    1) Smart people often are burdened by their “smartness,” and believe their intellect in one profession or endeavor translates to others. That is where the notion of a “brain surgeon in a Bonanza” or a “tech genius in a Cirrus” comes from.

    2) learning is an acquired skill. I have spent a lifetime learning from others, in jets, helicopters, bush planes and shooting. Attending a class in itself means nothing — you need to figure out how to learn from the class and instructor. I remember when a friend attended a JJ class, and his only take away was that JJ is athletic. In contrast, my wife is a life long student, and her continued shooting progress comes from studying best practices from a variety of sources.

    3) if you have never taken a class, you have no basis to evaluate the usefulness of taking classes.

    4) you need to be thoughtful about the classes you pick, your expectations from the class, and your plans to use what you learn.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  3. #13
    Classes can be useful if you have the right mindset and goals.

    As with most things, balance is best. I've known class junkies who only shoot in classes every other month, hobbyists who only shoot in their backyard, and competition shooters who only shoot in matches. Some of them were good shooters, most weren't, and all were leaving something on the table.

    Classes are also a wildcard because I see no shortage of ineffective local classes that cater to the lowest common denominator. They may keep people from shooting themselves, but they aren't making better shooters.

  4. #14
    At last count I have taken 40+ self defense courses (mostly firearms related) and like 8 performance driving schools including 4 day Bondurant school. Having trained with greats like Jim Cirillo,Mas Ayoob,Craig Douglas,Sheriff of Bagdad,Robert Vogel and lesser known instructors from all walks. I can say that I learned something from almost every trainer in every field. Some I gained a lot of knowledge and experience or improved significantly. Others I only picked up something small or only 1 or 2 things. A lot especially after taking a few courses in the same area were heavily repeats of earlier classes with no or very little difference.

    For driving I drove a lot and hard from before I got my license and was doing forward and reverse 180's,power slides, jumps,heel/toe downshifts,powershifts etc... all with zero instruction. I autocrossed a couple years and did a year of trackdays before Bondurant and the first 3 days were almost a waste other than practice. I learned nothing new.

    All that said my take is that in the beginning you learn the most and most times prevent instilling bad habits so taking a class in the beginning of your journey makes sense. As you progress I think classes do less and less other than help keep you up to date on trends and techniques and help verify what you are doing makes sense and is working. When you get far along in the journey classes may not gain you much in new or improving much but can tweak current techniques and tactics and give some variables not thought of in self study/practice.

    I got A LOT more out of a $200 1 day driving school than 4 days at the best driving school in the US just a year or so later. Value is important but if you learn and then use the 1 thing you got from a class to save your life I think the value is immense.

  5. #15
    Hammertime
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Desert Southwest
    Quote Originally Posted by octagon View Post
    I autocrossed a couple years and did a year of trackdays before Bondurant and the first 3 days were almost a waste other than practice. I learned nothing new.
    Bondurant. Truly the Gunsite of driving. One day of content in four days of instruction. Stupid expensive too.

    To be clear, I do not think I know everything, nor do I feel I have achieved mastery in, well, anything. But I do know how to teach myself and I am extremely sensitive to perceived wasted time. Not just the time of the class, but the time off work and travel time for most classes.

    For me, I have plateaued in my pistol skills and that is because, frankly, I don’t work at it nor do I practice enough. And I guess I am happy enough performing at the high school orchestra level and not being in the top 10%tile. It’s not because I haven’t taken enough classes. I would get a lot better if I started shooting competition regularly, and cared about my placement. That would drive the practice necessary for improvement and provide the practical experiences to evaluate how that practice is working. Learn, drill, test, evaluate, repeat. On the defensive side, force on force training with MUKing would probably be the highest yield experience.

  6. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Central Texas
    Training is what is required for someone to significantly increase skills. Traditional classes can be excellent training opportunities. There are other methods. Best example for me is motorcycle riding skills. Through video instruction, and lots, and lots of practice I increased my riding skills to where I can pass a motor officer qualification test easily. I'm sure a traditional in person class would have been a faster track, but it was still do-able with video instruction and practice. Lots of practice.

  7. #17
    Site Supporter P.E. Kelley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Dry-side of Washington State
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Glock View Post
    Bondurant. Truly the Gunsite of driving. One day of content in four days of instruction. Stupid expensive too.

    To be clear, I do not think I know everything, nor do I feel I have achieved mastery in, well, anything. But I do know how to teach myself and I am extremely sensitive to perceived wasted time. Not just the time of the class, but the time off work and travel time for most classes.

    For me, I have plateaued in my pistol skills and that is because, frankly, I don’t work at it nor do I practice enough. And I guess I am happy enough performing at the high school orchestra level and not being in the top 10%tile. It’s not because I haven’t taken enough classes. I would get a lot better if I started shooting competition regularly, and cared about my placement. That would drive the practice necessary for improvement and provide the practical experiences to evaluate how that practice is working. Learn, drill, test, evaluate, repeat. On the defensive side, force on force training with MUKing would probably be the highest yield experience.
    We are brothers from different mothers! If I wanted to get back into GM level trim I would have to take it up as a J.O.B. again.

    I love social aspects of shooting matches (all kinds of disciplines) and enjoy shooting all manner of tools in these events.

    If I can run most any event anywhere with about any tool at a "expert" level I am a happy man!
    Guns are just machines and without you they can do no harm, nor any good

  8. #18
    Great thread! I've been wondering something very similar lately. Following this discussion with interest! Thanks to the OP for starting it.

  9. #19
    IMO the hours spent in individual practice >>> hours spent on a firing line at a 2-day class.

    1. I firmly believe that 2 days of training is not enough time to meaningfully convey everything someone needs to know to develop their own shooting to a truly high level.

    2. I no longer believe in the "if I get one golden nugget out of the training, it's worth it" mindset. In my mind this is a coping mechanism. If someone is truly serious about training they won't have time to keep messing around with new techniques all the time. It's almost as bad as constantly switching guns or jumping back and forth between different sighting systems.

    3. When I was in 3rd grade, I used to practice the piano for 30 minutes per day. Most shooters, even the ones who attend lots of classes, probably practice less than my 3rd grade self did. In general shooters have a very warped sense of how much time is required for top level performance.

    I will say that every time I look at myself and feel good about having taught myself to shoot, I meet someone who seriously needs outside instruction if they want to improve. There are a lot of people who fundamentally have no idea what is happening when they shoot and therefore have no idea how to diagnose their errors. All that being said, I also find a lot of people who believe they need instruction, they just have no ability to discern who is a good instructor and who isn't.

  10. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    Missouri
    Learning how to practice is something valuable to be learned from a good competition instructor. I can’t say I ever got that from a tactical class. I got knowledge from it, so it was still valuable.

    Classes can be good but I don’t think it’s the default answer.

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