Are Classes the Only Way to Become Proficient?

[BehindBlueI's]

I've taken two "advanced" classes. From big name instructors (which everyone here will tell you to take a class from). Unfortunately, I didn't feel I got any actual instruction in either, it was mostly just "shoot my set ups and try to do well" type of training. Which to some extent was helpful because it helped show me where my strengths and weaknesses are (but I honestly could just have looked up these drills which are readily found on the internet and practiced them myself). And what little I did get out of the classes... I was only able to get, because I already have some competition experience to help give context to those drills. Someone who's a beginner or intermediate shooter might not know enough to be able to coach himself through the drills or what to do next with their results. It's true that in the long run you want to be your own coach, but a lot of trainers are using this statement as a cop out from having to ACTUALLY work/train to correct your issues. I saw a lot of bad shooting throughout the class with both instructors just walking the line and ignoring all these obvious faults. I mean, I know instructors aren't wizards, they can't fix you in one day or with one statement, but to never actually stop the shooter or even try to give them advice and just continue to watch them shoot like crap throughout 3 days... That's not acceptable. I think at some point, the bigger the name, the more complacent these instructors get. As if you're getting something just from being in their presence. I've seen it firsthand, many shooters leaving after 2-3 day classes with just aching hands, hundreds of dollars less, and 1k less ammo, and nothing learned other than they suck because they couldn't meet the instructor's standards. I've always found it rather interesting, that it's the training junkies who introduce themselves by their long training resumes with so and so, who tend to shoot the worst. What does that tell you? That classes are supplemental at best. There really isn't that much to shooting. In the end, where one will improve the majority of their training, is at home, with dry fire. Join a couple of shooting competitions, learn as you go, read some books on the subject, watch some youtube videos, diagnose yourself, and get to practicing/dryfiring/drilling. I managed to get to A class without any formal training and M is right around the corner.

I've taken a hand full of classes outside .gov courses, and always learned *something*, but if you want to work on fundamentals and get personalized feedback then John McPhee is the 'big name guy' to go to. I learned more about what I was doing vs what I thought I was doing from his coaching and video feedback then anything else I can think of. Slow motion video feedback of you shooting is a very powerful tool, IMO, especially because it's very tough to argue you aren't actually doing X when the video shows you doing X.

[octagon]

Having taken a John McPhee course a few years ago in MI I wholeheartedly can agree with BBI on the value especially for beginners and anyone looking to refine their shooting or address a specific shooting concern. More than the instruction or even Coaches Eye software using video shot from the side or front (dryfire) or rear once you have a decent understanding of efficiency and fundamentals is extremely valuable in improving and maintaining skills. Like BBI said what you "feel" or "think" you are doing is either verified or more often not found in the unblinking completely objective video footage.

[GJM]

In years past, I have taken a bunch of classes. These days, what stands between me and being a better shooter can only come from lots of dry and live fire, and studying video of myself and others. That doesn’t happen in a one or two day class, but rather over weeks, months and years of persistence.

Going from class to class is almost like shopping wellness doctors, each with their own diet and exercise plan. Pick one and start working.

[mmc45414]

I've taken a hand full of classes outside .gov courses, and always learned *something*

In my job working in sales seems like every time the value proposition was out of whack we all got sent to another sales training program. Some were good, some were lame, some were (IMO, including one that is currently very popular) just wrong, but I always learned something.

In years past, I have taken a bunch of classes. These days, what stands between me and being a better shooter can only come from lots of dry and live fire, and studying video of myself and others. That doesn’t happen in a one or two day class, but rather over weeks, months and years of persistence.

I have really only been to one organized popular class, but my peer group is probably rare and they have taught me a great deal. But I really started shooting better when I started (ETA: Probably ten years ago or so) going out every weekend and shooting our timed drills, informally competing with that peer group, every single weekend, not just when I was in the mood.

[JCN]

In years past, I have taken a bunch of classes. These days, what stands between me and being a better shooter can only come from lots of dry and live fire, and studying video of myself and others. That doesn’t happen in a one or two day class, but rather over weeks, months and years of persistence.

Going from class to class is almost like shopping wellness doctors, each with their own diet and exercise plan. Pick one and start working.

I love this so much!

@vcdgrips

I think everyone learns differently but for some and after a certain level, self study and experimentation is the way to make those subtle and incremental gains. Taking cues from other sports, slow motion video and study of inefficiency at reduced speeds is the key. It’s not necessary to achieve that level of mastery, but for those who want to pursue it it’s a viable path.

[UNM1136]

I've taken a hand full of classes outside .gov courses, and always learned *something*, but if you want to work on fundamentals and get personalized feedback then John McPhee is the 'big name guy' to go to. I learned more about what I was doing vs what I thought I was doing from his coaching and video feedback then anything else I can think of. Slow motion video feedback of you shooting is a very powerful tool, IMO, especially because it's very tough to argue you aren't actually doing X when the video shows you doing X.

Much luvs Shrek.

Have a local contact that I need to use to get him here. Dude is a STUD. Makes me hesitant, because I don't shoot anywhere near where I should....

And yes, his empasis on video reviews can be super humbling...but aren't we all students of the pistol? Shouldn't we welcome the spanking?

pat

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I'm at the point where I would only take a specialized class on a topic. For instance, Karl Rehn's Historic Hanguns. Yes, I probably could use some redo of the basics but I don't know the folks around here to make it worth my time.

I don't have the time or energy to do intensive practice, so I confine myself to two or three matches and some dry fire, SIRT around the house. No more H2H, to risky now - sigh.

My goal in matches is not to win as I never will. It is to keep basic skills up to date. Good accuracy and times actually shooting - not sprinting around. If I can in IPDA land have few points down or USPSA land, significantly more Alphas than Cs and very few Ds or Mikes, that's what I get.

I'm glad the club here has instituted a carry gun match and it seems wildly popular. Some folks still try to USPSA millisecond chase but that's OK. I get what I can get out of it for my old bones. Boy, I'm whiny but my knees are murderous lately.

I would suggest USPSA move into the 22 versions of service pistols. My club guy said if they allowed that as an option in an official match, they would get into trouble. What do I know?

Will do some steel challenge, PCC when the weather relaxes.

[vcdgrips]

I am not sure why JCN keeps mentioning me but it is saturday....

@vcdgrips

JCN says

"I think everyone learns differently but for some and after a certain level, self study and experimentation is the way to make those subtle and incremental gains. Taking cues from other sports, slow motion video and study of inefficiency at reduced speeds is the key. It’s not necessary to achieve that level of mastery, but for those who want to pursue it it’s a viable path."

Nobody who is at or near the top of anything bodily kinesthetic reached their full potential without classes and/or coaching.

Re the use tape. Particularly in the defensive training context- Paul Howe (CSAT) started teaching in an open enrollment environment in 2002-2003. He was the first trainer I heard of that was using video to critique students. IIRC, in the early days, student were told to bring a blank VHS tape. In a class or "coach" led small group setting.


John McPhee was the first instructor I heard of in the defensive training context that was using the "Coach's Eye" 10 or 12 years later, harnessing the widely available digital recording resources of Apple products. In a class or "coach" led small group setting. happy to stand corrected if there were others sooner.


Perhaps not surprisingly, Mrs. Howe and McPhee have a common military background re their respective service to our country.



Yes or No

1. In your "prime" would you have been a better driver if you had some coaching by the lead factory Porsche Driver? If not him/her then who?

Can you get better by self study-absolutely. Can you get crazy good-absolutely.

2. Would you be a better long gun shooter today if you had spent a day with somebody who was already a GM in the realm?


I know- you are still a better shooter than me. You self taught yourself to GM re a pistol. You have a finite amount of time.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I might disagree on the GM issue. I am all for classes but being a great driver or GM doesn't mean you are a great teacher. Those folks might be at the stage of unconscious competence and not be cognitively aware of how they do this or that or if they do have insights, they are correct.

I'm all for training but want a trainer who is truly competent in the domain as well as being a competent instructor and has taken his or herself instructions on how to teach and diagnosis actions.

One noted champion in TX taught but his instructions were usually something like: Shoot faster.

Folks like Givens, Rehn, Ayoob, etc. have the skills and the teaching abilities. Thus having real time with them is very worth it. They offer instruction on how to shoot and how to teach.

In Academia, one current analysis is that we taught folks how to be great researchers for an R1 environment but little to none on how to teach. Given most PhDs ended up in teaching institutions (OH, the bitter pain of that), it is being rethought.

[JCN]

I am not sure why JCN keeps mentioning me but it is saturday....

This is coming from an educational standpoint and a discussion standpoint. It's not meant to be antagonistic.

I quoted because GJM stated that he is at the point where he will make the most gains by self study rather than classes.

Would he or I be better faster if we had Max Michel or Ben Stoeger living in our basements ready to coach us whenever we felt like it?

For sure we would.

That's the nuance I think you may be misattributing.

I like going to classes and receiving instruction. When I was racing, I did and paid for a lot of formal education. Dozens of schools and many days worth.

Some were great (Hurley Haywood!) and some sucked donkey balls.

I'm not anti-class. Nor anti-coaching. I regularly tapped my GM pistol friends to help me when learning pistol. I did the online coaching program that Casey Reed and Max Michel did.

Receiving good information is very important and cuts learning curve down.

Implementing it (which is what I think GJM is saying and I agree) to actually achieve proficiency takes ongoing work and self study... and for that a coach generally isn't available for.