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Thread: Are Classes the Only Way to Become Proficient?

  1. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    The more I think individual, longitudinal coaching is the way to go.

    Being able to work with someone one on one, even “virtually” I think feels way more efficient than classes.

    Usually in a class an instructor has to tailor their attention to the average or to the weakest link.

    In individual coaching, I can tailor the drills to their strengths and weaknesses.

    And to their practice patterns and home range availability.

    It gives more points of contact.

    If you think of a model of learning an instrument, you don’t necessarily have just one lesson a year or twice a year.

    It’s weekly lessons with daily practice.

    Would love your guys’ opinions on this topic:
    @Moylan
    @JCS
    I believe individual coaching is far superior to large classes. It's a scientifically superior proven method of learning according to Anders Ericsson. Coaching wouldn't have to be paying someone in person either. With the plethora of online coaching options and monthly video programs, one can learn the fundamentals that way.

    More important than taking classes is being able to self analyze your errors and correct them. This isn't meant to poo-poo classes. But viewing them as the only way to get better discredits the power of the human mind to learn on it's own.

  2. #112

    Not in excess

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Glock View Post
    Obviously by the way I phrase the title, I don't think it is true. There are lots of ways to proficiency in firearms and I think the self taught model can be just as good or even better than attending classes.

    In general around PF, there is a tendency to push classes on folks. I don't think that is necessarily wrong, but I don't think they are necessary at all.

    I guess a lot comes from what sort of learner you are. For me: I have always learned from books and self testing on most topics and found lectures sort of a big waste of time.

    In this era of information on the web plus video I don't think there has ever been an easier time to be an auto didact. And I think it is probably more efficient though that is probably debateable.

    Firearms are consequential, but basic gun handling and marksmanship is not a difficult skill to learn.

    If you want to learn defense tactics, I think a course is probably more useful, but there is also an awful lot of written material out there going back hundreds of years if you look.

    If you want to learn competition shooting there is also plenty of information available.

    I think much more important than any in person class is: interest in the topic, the willingness to do the reading, and probably most importantly, the willingness to put in the practice and the necessary feedback cycle of push til you fail, analyze the failure, correct the flaws and try again.

    I have taken a few classes and invariably I am bugged by the massive amounts of wasted time.

    Anyhoo: discuss
    @GJM
    I've taken two "advanced" classes. From big name instructors (which everyone here will tell you to take a class from). Unfortunately, I didn't feel I got any actual instruction in either, it was mostly just "shoot my set ups and try to do well" type of training. Which to some extent was helpful because it helped show me where my strengths and weaknesses are (but I honestly could just have looked up these drills which are readily found on the internet and practiced them myself). And what little I did get out of the classes... I was only able to get, because I already have some competition experience to help give context to those drills. Someone who's a beginner or intermediate shooter might not know enough to be able to coach himself through the drills or what to do next with their results. It's true that in the long run you want to be your own coach, but a lot of trainers are using this statement as a cop out from having to ACTUALLY work/train to correct your issues. I saw a lot of bad shooting throughout the class with both instructors just walking the line and ignoring all these obvious faults. I mean, I know instructors aren't wizards, they can't fix you in one day or with one statement, but to never actually stop the shooter or even try to give them advice and just continue to watch them shoot like crap throughout 3 days... That's not acceptable. I think at some point, the bigger the name, the more complacent these instructors get. As if you're getting something just from being in their presence. I've seen it firsthand, many shooters leaving after 2-3 day classes with just aching hands, hundreds of dollars less, and 1k less ammo, and nothing learned other than they suck because they couldn't meet the instructor's standards. I've always found it rather interesting, that it's the training junkies who introduce themselves by their long training resumes with so and so, who tend to shoot the worst. What does that tell you? That classes are supplemental at best. There really isn't that much to shooting. In the end, where one will improve the majority of their training, is at home, with dry fire. Join a couple of shooting competitions, learn as you go, read some books on the subject, watch some youtube videos, diagnose yourself, and get to practicing/dryfiring/drilling. I managed to get to A class without any formal training and M is right around the corner.

  3. #113
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    Congratulations on A Class.

    Best of luck re M Class.

    Paragraph breaks really help the reader understand and appreciate the points you are trying to make.
    I am not your attorney. I am not giving legal advice. Any and all opinions expressed are personal and my own and are not those of any employer-past, present or future.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by IDontDoQuests View Post
    I think at some point, the bigger the name, the more complacent these instructors get. As if you're getting something just from being in their presence.

    I've seen it firsthand, many shooters leaving after 2-3 day classes with just aching hands, hundreds of dollars less, and 1k less ammo, and nothing learned other than they suck because they couldn't meet the instructor's standards.

    I've always found it rather interesting, that it's the training junkies who introduce themselves by their long training resumes with so and so, who tend to shoot the worst. What does that tell you?

    In the end, where one will improve the majority of their training, is at home, with dry fire. Join a couple of shooting competitions, learn as you go, read some books on the subject, watch some youtube videos, diagnose yourself, and get to practicing/dryfiring/drilling.
    This is what I’ve learned in an active year of being on Pistol-Forum:

    There are a lot of great people here. There are a wide variety of different goals for their time with firearms and different priorities for their training.

    For some of them, structured classes are absolutely the best use of their time.

    For others, self study works better with their personalities.

    For yet others, facilitated coaching and mentoring in addition to the self study is their best life.

    What works for you may or may not work for them. There are no universal truths for firearm training.

    We are all big boys (and girls) here. People will find the method that works for them emotionally and time investment-wise even if it’s not the most efficient at technical training. It’s what works for them and their choice on how they spend their time and money.

    The lines between formal and informal and virtual training are progressively more blurry in this day and age.

    Focus on what you want out of your competition goals and live your best life, cheers!

    P.S. would love to read your training journal if you make one, it’s always fun to watch people work through their plateaus and cheer with their successes. Best of luck on M class!

  5. #115
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    From watching what goes on in many formal training classes with big name instructors there is a large shoulder rubbing & bragging component in play. I can now say I trained with _______ __________.

    There also is opportunity to learn and improve. I feel what can be learned depends on the individual student. It depends on many factors, most significant is where that student is in ability level. There would be a sweet spot where someone has enough experience to be ready to be taken to the next level. Too little experience and the student would be overwhelmed, unable to keep up and a drag on the class. Someone with a lot of experience under their belt could benefit from and be happy with a few nuggets of gold picked up at a class.

    In many cases formal instruction should not be looked at as how much better will I be when the class is over. But how much can I learn, observe and take notes on that I will go on and practice and improve upon over the next few months. It really is difficult to walk away from 2 days of instruction markedly improved shooter. Think of formal training as obtaining the tools/techniques required to practice and become better.

  6. #116
    Member MVS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S. View Post
    Your "opportunity cost" comments in post #70 of this thread seem to conflict with the metrics you've set. If resources are very limited, you should probably narrow down and focus your "why."

    Acknowledging that this is the "Competition Skills" sub-forum on Pistol-Forum, I should be clear that "it's a free country," as they say. If you want to get really, really good at the shooty stuff, just because, then rock on with your bad 'ol self. Set whatever kick-ass standards you want get after it.

    That said, if you're primary goal is personal defense, I suspect you'd do well to look to the standards of instructors like @Tom Givens, @Darryl Bolke, @Wayne Dobbs, and commentary by guys like @Cecil Burch @SouthNarc, @Paul Sharp and Varg Freeborn, for instance. I suspect that anyone on the high side of "C" class has sufficient raw marksmanship skill to do really well in those standards, and therefore do well in a personal defense shooting. To that point, The Tactical Professor Claude Werner's minimum effective standards are even more modest. Fortunately, acquiring and maintaining that level of skill probably won't require a ton of practice, ammo and time away from family.

    On the other hand, personal defense is multi-disciplinary. Shooting is only one of the skillsets that a well rounded personal defense practitioner ought to be familiar with, and arguably the least likely to be used in a personal defense encounter. Being physically strong and healthy, along with competency in

    Awareness and Avoidance
    MUC (Managing Unknown Contacts)
    OC Spray
    Hand to Hand fighting (such as BJJ or boxing)
    managing in-fight stress response
    medical training
    low light shooting
    defensive weapons flow
    force on force validation
    managing the after action
    use of force legalities

    are more likely to affect the outcome than having "A class" shooty skills. IF personal defense is the primary goal, I suspect getting "C class" competency in most or all of those skillsets is more valuable than becoming A, M, or GM in just shooting. If you can consistently pass the more respectable LE quals or Tom Givens standards, for instance, then time and resources may be better spent pursuing family time, health and wellness, general preparedness (food, water, power, shelter) and competency at those other defensive skills.

    Of course, you do you.

    ***I am in not remotely an expert on any of this. That's why I qualify everything with "I suspect..." This is my imperfect understanding from listening those who are. I hope the knowledgable folks will push back if I'm full of poop. ***
    I agree with a lot of what you said and used to be all in on all of the physical stuff, then I became physically limited. So do the old and infirm still have any hope for self defense?

    I found this recent Rangemaster article reflects more of my current way of thinking.

    https://conditionredresponse.com/?p=1006

  7. #117
    Member MVS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vcdgrips View Post
    I am extraordinarily reluctant to compare shooting to golf in any meaningful way.

    The consequences for playing/practicing/training poorly are rarely life altering.

    Re shooting, the exact opposite is true.
    Not a big golf fan, but seeing as how we are in the Competition sub forum, I can see the parallels.

  8. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by MVS View Post
    I agree with a lot of what you said and used to be all in on all of the physical stuff, then I became physically limited. So do the old and infirm still have any hope for self defense?

    I found this recent Rangemaster article reflects more of my current way of thinking.

    https://conditionredresponse.com/?p=1006
    Nailed it. Kilt on the streetz. :facepalm:
    David S.

  9. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by vcdgrips View Post
    Congratulations on A Class.

    Best of luck re M Class.

    Paragraph breaks really help the reader understand and appreciate the points you are trying to make.
    Thanks and will do. I am used to another website and the way the paragraphs look once posted, now I know to separate here a bit more.
    Now that I am taking this sport seriously, I am actually starting to post here rather than browse.

  10. #120
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MVS View Post
    Not a big golf fan, but seeing as how we are in the Competition sub forum, I can see the parallels.
    Don't get me going on golf. Golf courses are a total waste of a perfectly good rifle range!

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