Are Classes the Only Way to Become Proficient?

[okie john]

To go back to the OP, classes are not the only way to become proficient. But they are a very good way and as others have pointed out, coaching is even better.

I had some kind of coaching or training weekly if not daily starting when I was eight or nine years old and continuing until I was about 15. That's what happens when your father is on a National Guard shooting team and is deadly serious about being good at it.

I was also an active-duty Special Forces soldier for several years during the Cold War. I got almost no "training" on shooting in the sense that we're using that word on this thread. (On a handful of occasions, one of us would put something together on one of the less-structured range days that were all too rare back then. Sometimes that was very good. On a couple of occasions it was horrible and misinformed to the point of being counterproductive.) What I did get was a ton of training on how to fight: how to apply shooting skills in dynamic situations, how to plan your way in and out of them, and how to work in accord with other armed people.

Since I left the Army, I've trained with some solid folks. The best taught me how to continue training myself after class was over. For instance, Pat McNamara, Ken Hackathorn, and Larry Vickers would call it out in class: "Hey, guys, here's how to stay proficient and get better after you leave here..." Then they'd explain how to adjust par times, conditions, and scores for standard drills to improve specific aspects of performance. Dagga Boy also talks about this in the threads on the D Platoon Qualification Courses. I think that a lot of my fellow students missed the importance of this because it came late in the class when we had been shooting for several hours and were too focused on range-level minutiae and loading mags to recognize an actual long-term strategy that could keep us growing and learning as shooters/fighters for years.

That said, a lot of it depends on what you want to do with the skills you acquire.

If 1 is rank beginner, 6 is reasonably competent and 10 is world class proficiency, pretty much anyone who is willing to put in the study and practice can eventually get to 3 or 4 or 5 in anything on their own, whether it's the violin, or the pistol, or woodworking.

6 will win a lot of fights but not all of them. 8 is a better place to be, and we all need help to get there.


Okie John

[JohnO]

I don't know if it has been brought up but online coaching exists. John "Shrek" McPhee (AKA The Sheriff of Baghdad) offers online coaching. I believe he gives details on how to film yourself and then he critiques your form via submitted video. I have no direct knowledge of this process, just putting it out there. It just might be worth getting evaluated by a professional via video if you have no one available to coach you in person. There is nothing worse than developing training scars.

[NoTacTravis]

6 will win a lot of fights but not all of them. 8 is a better place to be, and we all need help to get there.


Okie John

This makes sense. Can you expand a bit on a couple of objective benchmarks of what an 8 looks like so that people can better evaluate how close to it they are able to push themselves?

[Eyesquared]

I don't know if it has been brought up but online coaching exists. John "Shrek" McPhee (AKA The Sheriff of Baghdad) offers online coaching. I believe he gives details on how to film yourself and then he critiques your form via submitted video. I have no direct knowledge of this process, just putting it out there. It just might be worth getting evaluated by a professional via video if you have no one available to coach you in person. There is nothing worse than developing training scars.

Ben Stoeger and Hwansik Kim also offer online video review which I think they do a very good job of. I believe there are several others who offer online reviews now too. I think Steve Anderson, Scott Jedlinski, and Tim Herron all do online coaching / reviews.

[okie john]

This makes sense. Can you expand a bit on a couple of objective benchmarks of what an 8 looks like so that people can better evaluate how close to it they are able to push themselves?

I don’t know that numerical scales are useful for winning fights.

Shooting is a mechanical skill. It lends itself to numerical scales and PF has many superb threads on quantifying its various levels, which ones matter, and how deeply we should train on them. Posts by GJM are a good marker for quality in this area.

Fighting is a people skill. People are animals, either predators or prey. Predators usually see other predators first so they have more options. For this, I’d study the differences between affective and predatory aggression plus the behavioral markers for each. This helps you spot potentially violent encounters, avoid them if you can, and choose how to engage if you can’t avoid them. This is a good idea for everyone, especially those who refuse to go armed.

Fights are always deeply human interactions but many people shoot faster and longer than an evolving situation merits. You need to learn to assess situations as they evolve so you can stop your response at the appropriate time. Dagga Boy and Wayne Dobbs have shared much wisdom on this. IIRC, the D Platoon posts are a goldmine of information.

Of these three, I’d prioritize spotting predators, assessment, and shooting in that order.

Sorry I couldn’t be more help.


Okie John

[Caballoflaco]

This makes sense. Can you expand a bit on a couple of objective benchmarks of what an 8 looks like so that people can better evaluate how close to it they are able to push themselves?

I think Chuck Pressburg’s take on pure competition vs gunfighting might be relevant to what you’re asking here.



I’ll also agree with @okie john that except for black swan events like a home invasion or mass shooting I put as much or more thought into my people skills as I do technical skills when it comes to self defense. I’ve been able to read people well enough to talk myself out of or just avoid far more situations than I’ve ever had to fight my way out of.

[JCN]

Rob Leatham’s thoughts

[rob_s]

“Only” way? No, probably not. Every guy that doesn’t want to take a class for whatever reason can find an idol that had great success at the task or activity with little to no formal instruction.

But IMO, almost regardless of the task or activity, initial quality instruction is key to success for most people. Particularly when first starting out.

Of course, the problem is, if you’re new how do you know what quality instruction is? Particularly with a task like shooting where there is so much mythology and romance and baggage and Mitty-ism involved.

My wife and daughters have started taking tennis lessons. They are basically going from no experience. It’s been interesting to watch both the frustration at not “playing and then corresponding joy at “getting it” at certain intervals.

At work we’ve gone to what I call “just in time” training. We try to time our instruction to the task(s) at hand given the stage of the project (we’re a construction company). I think there’s probably some merit to that concept with physical activities as well.

FWIW I also view “training”, “practice” and “instruction” as three distinct things.

[El Cid]

I’ve enjoyed the classes I’ve taken over the years. And I paid out of pocket for most of them because the job won’t. But I don’t think a 2 or 3 day class is enough to be proficient at anything. I take what I learn and apply it during training or competition.

The thing that has helped me become proficient with weapons in my opinion is competition. I try to shoot a match at least monthly. And for most of those the folks running them let me draw from concealment. I use factory triggers on my Glocks and concealable holsters.

I still consider training/classes as important - we don’t want to become proficient at something that is a bad habit.

[JCS]

Classes teach you what to work on. You don't come away from the class a magically better shooter.

Agree or Disagree?

If true then you still have to put in the work. Going to a class won't make you inherently better. You have to put in the work after and apply what you learned. At least in terms of shooting skills. I think there's a lot that can be learned at classes like Managing unknown contacts and force on force but the way I interpret the question is are classes the only way to become proficient with a gun.

Just my thoughts.