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Thread: Are Classes the Only Way to Become Proficient?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totem Polar View Post
    ^^^I can totally get behind this idea. This is in total alignment with the idea of practice and practicing for performance being two different processes.
    THIS.

    I dry fire par train at a faster time standard than what I hope and can achieve confidently and reproducibly in actual performance.

    I have been working full left handed for the past week and went from a miserable >6 second FAST to an easy clean <5.3s in just a few days of hard work.



    I trained at a 4.7 dry par time to make 5.3 live.
    Now training at 4.25 to hopefully clear 5 tomorrow in live.

  2. #52
    I have been actively teaching Martial Arts and H2H fighting since 1987, and I can count on my hands with many fingers left over of people I have encountered who have learned high level skills effectively without mistakes and a deep understanding of the contextual underpinnings without having a teacher guide them.

    Actually, I will have all of my fingers left over, because I have never seen it. And at this point, I have personally taught over 7,000 students.

    The biggest problem with learning something is that extremely few people have true kinesthetic awareness and proprioception of what their body is doing. So we tend to THINK we are performing something at a certain level, when in reality we are not, and in truth are doing something maybe as much as 180 degrees wrong. In last Saturday's BJJ class, I watched my instructor give a terrific tutorial on a fairly easy classic judo throw. He walked everyone through it step by step and gave excellent verbal cues that the student could use to make sure they were doing everything correct. He and I then spent the next 15 minutes literally moving people's bodies in specific ways because even when they would say the correct verbal cues, they would almost always move some body part incorrectly, and NEVER KNEW IT even as we verbally followed them and said "right there! that is the wrong position to step to".

    In my fundamental seminar coursework, I teach a really simple concept to keep safe when you find yourself on the ground when you don't want to be. One aspect of it is keeping your elbows connected to your ribs. Anyone on this forum who has done my class will remember how many times I had to walk around correcting people who are adamant that their elbows are stuck to their ribs, when in actuality the arms are straight out and far away.

    The first time I took Craig Douglas' Armed Movement in Structures class, I already had solid gunhandling skills, and yet, during the learning phase - not even when we were going Force-on-Force with oppositional pressure, but just working through the techniques, I kept putting my finger on the trigger. I did not know it, and it took Craig walking behind me looking over my shoulder to catch it. I never would have, and I would have sworn on my children's lives afterward that I never did what I truly did do.

    I have been weightlifting since high school (class of '82 baby!) and I did a lot of it. I am a smart researcher and studied the best manuals on technique performance, including videos. And I focused on what I considered fairly straight forward lifts like deadlifts and squats. DECADES later, when I took the time to hire a knowledgeable powerlifting coach, he had to correct a metric ton of poor habits and movements. And just two weeks ago, I had one of the main coaches for the Starting Strength program come to my Dallas seminar, and he corrected another poor habit I had in the squat.

    My meandering point is this: with physical skills, some simple things can be learned without a teacher. But WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WE DON'T KNOW, and even with simple actions we can be sooooo wrong. With more complex actions, especially things that have to stand up to resistance and oppositional energy, we can easily be even more off base and not know it without at least some outside input.

    I like Chief Weem's way of putting it - classes we can do without, coaching we cannot.
    For info about training or to contact me:
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  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    Coyle actually ripped off Anders Ericsson’s premise and kind of got it wrong (per Ericsson).

    I like going to the source and Ericsson is the one who had the firsthand knowledge and designed the experiments.

    Agreed. I have read both multiple times, and Peak is far and away superior.
    For info about training or to contact me:
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  4. #54
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post

    I have been working full left handed for the past week and went from a miserable >6 second FAST to an easy clean <5.3s in just a few days of hard work.


    OT for a sec: that’s great work, right there.
    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

  5. #55
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil Burch View Post
    Agreed. I have read both multiple times, and Peak is far and away superior.
    And Bezos gets a tip. I had to check to make sure that Ericsson wasn’t already in the library. Thanks, gents.

    @JCN
    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totem Polar View Post
    OT for a sec: that’s great work, right there.
    Thanks, I made a training log for my left hand here.

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....hooting-thread

    I thought it was a great opportunity to demonstrate exactly what we are talking about in this thread.

    I started with baseline left handed performance that was very mediocre and on par with a number of casual shooters’ strong hands.

    I wanted to see how quickly I could bring my left handed shooting up to decent proficiency.

    Finding your level at level 3 and sub 5 FAST.
    With one week of dedicated and frequent and specific practice, I am almost there.

    It was a perfect experiment because I already can do these things right handed.
    So I KNOW how to do it and don’t need coaching.

    But how much WORK and what specific component drills would I have to work on to make those levels of performance?

    That’s what I worked on.

  7. #57
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    I will also add that it’s not bad or wrong to DECIDE to not work at improving a skill.
    I don’t care to work on my golf game.

    But anyone who has reached a certain level of proficiency shooting has put the work in (that is an immutable finding of Ericsson).

    And most people who have not achieved that level haven’t put in the work. I’m not talking about logging hours. I’m talking about focused work. That’s different than recreational shooting or goofing off at a match with your buddies.

    In Ericsson’s book he talks about the dedicated music students being so mentally exhausted from practicing that they often had to take naps afterwards. And nobody enjoyed practicing.

  8. #58
    Member Sauer Koch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Glock View Post
    Bondurant. Truly the Gunsite of driving. One day of content in four days of instruction. Stupid expensive too.

    To be clear, I do not think I know everything, nor do I feel I have achieved mastery in, well, anything. But I do know how to teach myself and I am extremely sensitive to perceived wasted time. Not just the time of the class, but the time off work and travel time for most classes.

    For me, I have plateaued in my pistol skills and that is because, frankly, I don’t work at it nor do I practice enough. And I guess I am happy enough performing at the high school orchestra level and not being in the top 10%tile. It’s not because I haven’t taken enough classes. I would get a lot better if I started shooting competition regularly, and cared about my placement. That would drive the practice necessary for improvement and provide the practical experiences to evaluate how that practice is working. Learn, drill, test, evaluate, repeat. On the defensive side, force on force training with MUKing would probably be the highest yield experience.
    Gabe’s PSS course is amazing. He’s an excellent instructor, and IMO, his class structure/methodology is designed to bring out the best in you. Reading some of your comments, something tells me you would enjoy his class very much.

    Respectfully

  9. #59
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    I\

    In Ericsson’s book he talks about the dedicated music students being so mentally exhausted from practicing that they often had to take naps afterwards. And nobody enjoyed practicing.
    Even in a world of professional musicians, I still get a lot of colleagues looking at me like I’ve got a dick on my forehead when I say that I only have 40 minutes of “real" practice per day in me. If I’m doing it right, I’m pretty fried at that point.

    I can, of course, give myself a mini-concert with a pint of craft microbrew on the table beside me all night, and probably refine some things in a gross way, but 40 minutes of actual work is about it for me.

    I had a chance to be a fly on the wall and experience a practice session by world-class violin virtuoso Midori, while remaining unobserved, myself (who says that fluffy, lightweight Ivory tower musicians have no use for a GRS ‘tradecraft’ class?).

    It was a life-changing experience, and when I’m not off to teach 10 lessons in a row, myself, I’ll relate the story here, down the road.
    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

  10. #60
    Member Sal Picante's Avatar
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    I think this fits, if tangentially...

    http://instagram.com/p/CK49fI9F9Kn/


    Travis is the man...

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