Yes, Tim Herron does. I have done a couple of sessions with him and it is an incredible value. I just recently looked at Scott Jedlinski's site to see about some coaching, and for the time being it appears he is no longer offering the service. https://www.modernsamuraiproject.com/1hourlessonOriginally Posted by Eyesquared
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason.
I think it depends where you are on the skill arc. Early on? Yeah, you probably walk away a better shooter, although if you have a good instructor it's not "magic".
I mean, shit, you almost can't help but become a better shooter after 2-3 days on the range and 500-2000 rounds expelled. You damn near trip and fall and get better just from dedicating the time to what actually amounts to practice. Many people don't seem to get that. They go to a class with instructor A and by the end of TD3 they can hit something they couldn't at the start of TD1. OK. But that's like getting a 3% raise and being proud of it. You forgot that's just inflation, just like you forgot that you got better because you practiced. 5... 7... 12%... now THAT's a raise. Come away shooting better and knowing how to get even better on your own, THAT's instruction.
maybe that's why it looks like magic.
Does the above offend? If you have paid to be here, you can click here to put it in context.
Maybe I need to re-read the thread straight through again but... Have we properly defined our terms here?
What are we defining proficency as? And proficiency in what exactly?
My ASSumption has been that we were talking about becoming proficient in the mechanics and skills of shooting a pistol. But some of the defense of classes or claims that it can't be accomplished through independent study seem to revolve more around the learning and application of tactics to shooting or the application of shooting skills to a real world environment. Not developing proficiency in just shooting the gun.
I'm splitting hairs here and trying not to start up the old skills vs. tactics debate or offend the posters on the thread that are infinitely more real and accomplished than I am spouting off my own unproven opinions. Hence me trying hard to politely define, what is proficiency exactly? And proficiency in what exactly? For the sake of being able to properly debate/discuss something from the same page.
My personal belief (FNG alert here) is that I can become proficient and skilled as a shooter who can learn to operate a firearm in a highly skilled manner by watching youtube, scouring the internet, sending PM's and emails. And exhaustively, obsessively pushing myself every day to attain objective benchmarks that increase in difficulty over time.
It's possible that I can't. It's also possible that what I'm chasing and deeming proficiency is not what is being discussed in this thread. I'm hoping that by clearly defining our terms I can better understand which of the two arguments I am running afoul of.
what are the objective benchmarks?
Also, and I suppose this is part of your greater point, I don't think most on this forum are terribly interested in base marksmanship (align sights, pull trigger) for it's own sake. Just about anyone on PF is going to be interested in the draw, reload, shooting while moving, moving to shoot, unconventional positions, etc.
As I stated in my first post, you *could* become "proficient" in those things with nothing but the internet, but it's unlikely, and my bet is that for the vast majority of people that aren't savants the first time you are truly objectively tested outside metrics that are entirely within your control you will fail.
Does the above offend? If you have paid to be here, you can click here to put it in context.
Thanks for taking the time to consider my post! I like your attribute and skills listing of "the draw, reload, shooting while moving, moving to shoot, unconventional positions, etc." and ruling out only looking at bullseye style marksmanship (I'm ASSuming that's what you refer to with base marksmanship align sights pull trigger) as a standalone metric.
On his site Gabe White lists:
https://www.gabewhitetraining.com/te...-skills-tests/
A tactical level of proficiency in core technical skills of drawing and shooting
Bill Drill, 3.50 (Theoretical Breakdown: 1.50 + .40 + .40 + .40 + .40 + .40)
Failure to Stop, 2.90 (Theoretical Breakdown: 1.50 + .40 + 1.00)
Immediate Incapacitation, 3.00 (Theoretical Breakdown: 2.00 + 1.00)
Split Bill Drill, 4.70 (Theoretical Breakdown: 1.50 + .40 + .40 + .40 + 1.00 + 1.00)
This seems to best match the thread title of "Are classes the only way of becoming proficient?" as it includes a class based standard labeled as proficiency by a well respected trainer.
My personal objective benchmarks I plan on attaining initially are:
-5 second FAST (talked about too much on P-F for me not to be able to execute this)
-IDPA Expert classification (this was my first goal from reading a lot before I fired my first shots and was looking for an objective benchmark before starting the journey. I'd like to make sure to follow through on it.) Lots of shooting from unconventional positions to be found here typically.
-2 second BILL drill (It's on too many lists for me to consider myself adequate if I can't do it on demand).
-USPSA "A" Class (I don't plan on having to practice for classifiers but will if it's required to make my goal. I mention this because USPSA should handle the "moving while shooting part" but classifications can be gamed to achieve this through stand and shoot skills alone.
*I really don't anticipate a problem with "moving TO shoot" (assuming you don't mean "shooting on the move"). It's too much fun to practice not to end up good at rushing to and from a position to shoot on the clock.
[QUOTE=rob_s;1185187....the first time you are truly objectively tested outside metrics that are entirely within your control you will fail.[/QUOTE]
I assume that to be absolutely the case. Then I'll go work on my now glaringly revealed shortcomings and go back and do it again, lather rinse repeat. That should be the basic premise of an independent course of study to attain objective progressively harder benchmarks.
More important than whatever metric I list, what would you deem an objective benchmark or set of benchmarks?
At some level if proficiency can't be defined or objectively tested then you could just always arbitrarily tell someone they've fallen short.
One of the advantages of going to a class or shooting in USPSA or IDPA matches is that it provides you with an opportunity to be tested on somebody else's scenario.
The technical skills of running the gun are pretty similar. The application between a shooter working on defensive skills and a shooter working on competition skills is somewhat different.
I think shooting drills is great to structure your practice, and this forum is a great repository for lots of good drills used by well known instructors.
If you're just trying to develop to your personal limit, that's a valid goal. Depends on what you're hoping to accomplish. For shooters who are defensively oriented, too much focus on what Grant Cunningham has referred to as "meaningless increments of precision" may be counter productive or an inefficient use of resources like time and ammunition.
You need to stop right fucking now.
Classes are not the only way to become proficient on these drills but they are the safest way. Learning to shoot is not like learning to fix a garbage disposal. Mistakes kill people.
The standards you listed are extremely high. It takes years of training, coaching, and competition to reach them. They all demand speed, which has inherent risk even for experienced, trained shooters who are just starting to learn them. Speed has far more risk for inexperienced, untrained shooters. Take the instructor out of the equation and you're playing with fire.
Instructors and coaches who know what they’re doing—many do not—break a drill down into individual components, then teach you each component. Then they teach you the transitions between components so you can start to string them all together. Then they show you how something you do on Component A affects Component E or F. Most important, they ensure that you progress at the right speed for the level of proficiency that you’re demonstrating in that moment. None of this is done on the clock until you can shoot the entire drill slowly without doing something unsafe.
Internet video cannot say, “Stop! That thing you’re doing right there is unsafe. Here's why. Don’t do that. Do this instead.”
A tiny portion of internet video comes from people who make shooting seem easy because they’ve had decades of training, classes, coaching, etc., usually at taxpayer expense. You don’t see the reps and training and failures that made them good, so it’s easy to think that you can walk into a gravel pit and start banging out El Pres in six seconds. FWIW, the original par time for a clean El Pres was 10 seconds on targets 10 meters apart. For that setup, 15 seconds is a strong score for an experienced shooter who’s shooting El Pres on the clock for the first time with a good coach. But nobody ever mentions that.
Most internet video is about as useful as an episode of Charlie’s Angels. It's self-aggrandizing bullshit made by people who have no clue about shooting and a lot of it can actually reduce your skills. If you’re new to shooting and you go too fast too soon without help, then you WILL make mistakes but you won’t realize it until it's too late. You do NOT want to be this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE
Best case? You pick up bad habits but don’t realize it, they keep you from ever shooting well, you force your way around them, and it takes years to unlearn them later.
Worst case? You shoot someone else. Shooting yourself is not worst-case because that means there's one less dumbfuck in the gene pool.
Okie John
“The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
"Don't fuck with it" seems to prevent the vast majority of reported issues." BehindBlueI's
This was kind of where I was headed with a potential reply.
to Travis I'd ask, what are your current times or scores on these?
I would also recommend Dot Torture as a good Marksmanship standard with some elevated requirements. it's not a means of training, it's a means of establishing benchmarks.
- Draw
- Micro-transitions (between dots, as opposed to macro-transitions between targets. think inches vs feet)
- Strong-hand only
- Weak-hand only
- Reload
Does the above offend? If you have paid to be here, you can click here to put it in context.
@okie john My sincere apologies. You were actually a primary person I was trying to carefully word my last couple of posts not to offend. Obviously I failed in that attempt.
Apparently I didn't do a good job of walking the line of my train of thought and caused offense. I'll stop my line of questioning here. I very much appreciate your safety concerns and agree that safety should always be a primary consideration of this type of training. I'll start a training log and post videos of my training there as it progresses. I would be happy for your critique and advice on any safety fails I am making or should be taking should you be willing to waste any of your time checking it out.
@rob_s I'd really enjoy more discussion on those times and drills. However, I'm worried about making the thread all about me an my personal journey to improvement and I seem to be derailing the thread from the discussion in general now so I'll stop. I'll start a training log by the end of this week and invite your input/discussion/criticism there. I'd be happy to chew on the matter there where I won't be disturbing the flow and good will of the forum.
Last edited by NoTacTravis; 02-16-2021 at 12:54 PM.
Gravel pits are dangerous. Local guy was just killed by a friend who shot him in the chest with an "unloaded'' AK. I read the news story and then my neighbor told me he knew the guy who was killed through his son and his girlfriend.
The safety factor cannot be stressed enough IMO. Our range has an RSO when it's open to the public and generally 4 or 5 people who have been thru RSO training who assist. They now require new members to take the NRA Home Firearm Safety Class. That started last year I think.
Last edited by Borderland; 02-16-2021 at 01:05 PM.
In the P-F basket of deplorables.
Reply With Quote