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Thread: Are Classes the Only Way to Become Proficient?

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by NoTacTravis View Post
    @okie john My sincere apologies. You were actually a primary person I was trying to carefully word my last couple of posts not to offend. Obviously I failed in that attempt.

    Apparently I didn't do a good job of walking the line of my train of thought and caused offense. I'll stop my line of questioning here. I very much appreciate your safety concerns and agree that safety should always be a primary consideration of this type of training. I'll start a training log and post videos of my training there as it progresses. I would be happy for your critique and advice on any safety fails I am making or should be taking should you be willing to waste any of your time checking it out.
    I’m not offended. I just don’t want people to get hurt. Please keep asking questions but please take my words into account. I’d love to see you become a proficient shooter who carries the message of safe proficiency far and wide.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoTacTravis View Post
    My ASSumption has been that we were talking about becoming proficient in the mechanics and skills of shooting a pistol. But some of the defense of classes or claims that it can't be accomplished through independent study seem to revolve more around the learning and application of tactics to shooting or the application of shooting skills to a real world environment. Not developing proficiency in just shooting the gun.

    I'm splitting hairs here and trying not to start up the old skills vs. tactics debate or offend the posters on the thread that are infinitely more real and accomplished than I am spouting off my own unproven opinions. Hence me trying hard to politely define, what is proficiency exactly? And proficiency in what exactly? For the sake of being able to properly debate/discuss something from the same page.
    This may be our disconnect. Most of us here define "learning to shoot" as learning to load, fire, clear, and reduce stoppages a gun while on a square range. Most of us define "tactics" as having more to do with universal principles of fighting than with shooting, and the pistol is the means by which we carry out some of them some of the time. Some drills you listed, like the Bill Drill, are pure shooting. They develop skill that bolsters the ability and confidence to execute tactics, but are not tactical solutions in and of themselves—running an ultrafast Bill Drill on a guy robbing a liquor store is probably a bad idea absent very specific situational factors.

    Other drills, while they aren't actual tactics, are definitely influenced by tactics and the universal principles of fighting. This is a massive gray area, and many of us who post here happily do our life’s work here trying to understand that gray area, make sense of it, and share that understanding.

    The benchmarks you’ve set are admirable. Most people take years to achieve them. By all means continue toward them, but proceed knowing that they only measure one type of proficiency, arguably one of the least important.

    I suppose all of this is another way to ask, "What do you want to become proficient AT?"


    Okie John
    “The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
    "Don't fuck with it" seems to prevent the vast majority of reported issues." BehindBlueI's

  2. #92
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    It’s kind of like learning to play golf but only training on an astroturf driving mat.

    You can develop a great swing, but it’s not the same thing as playing golf in its entirety.

    It doesn’t discount the effort and achievement of being able to drive golf balls, but it’s not the entirety of the game.

  3. #93
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    I am extraordinarily reluctant to compare shooting to golf in any meaningful way.

    The consequences for playing/practicing/training poorly are rarely life altering.

    Re shooting, the exact opposite is true.
    I am not your attorney. I am not giving legal advice. Any and all opinions expressed are personal and my own and are not those of any employer-past, present or future.

  4. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by NoTacTravis View Post
    Thanks for taking the time to consider my post! I like your attribute and skills listing of "the draw, reload, shooting while moving, moving to shoot, unconventional positions, etc." and ruling out only looking at bullseye style marksmanship (I'm ASSuming that's what you refer to with base marksmanship align sights pull trigger) as a standalone metric.

    On his site Gabe White lists:
    https://www.gabewhitetraining.com/te...-skills-tests/

    A tactical level of proficiency in core technical skills of drawing and shooting

    Bill Drill, 3.50 (Theoretical Breakdown: 1.50 + .40 + .40 + .40 + .40 + .40)
    Failure to Stop, 2.90 (Theoretical Breakdown: 1.50 + .40 + 1.00)
    Immediate Incapacitation, 3.00 (Theoretical Breakdown: 2.00 + 1.00)
    Split Bill Drill, 4.70 (Theoretical Breakdown: 1.50 + .40 + .40 + .40 + 1.00 + 1.00)

    This seems to best match the thread title of "Are classes the only way of becoming proficient?" as it includes a class based standard labeled as proficiency by a well respected trainer.


    My personal objective benchmarks I plan on attaining initially are:

    -5 second FAST (talked about too much on P-F for me not to be able to execute this)
    -IDPA Expert classification (this was my first goal from reading a lot before I fired my first shots and was looking for an objective benchmark before starting the journey. I'd like to make sure to follow through on it.) Lots of shooting from unconventional positions to be found here typically.
    -2 second BILL drill (It's on too many lists for me to consider myself adequate if I can't do it on demand).
    -USPSA "A" Class (I don't plan on having to practice for classifiers but will if it's required to make my goal. I mention this because USPSA should handle the "moving while shooting part" but classifications can be gamed to achieve this through stand and shoot skills alone.

    *I really don't anticipate a problem with "moving TO shoot" (assuming you don't mean "shooting on the move"). It's too much fun to practice not to end up good at rushing to and from a position to shoot on the clock.



    I assume that to be absolutely the case. Then I'll go work on my now glaringly revealed shortcomings and go back and do it again, lather rinse repeat. That should be the basic premise of an independent course of study to attain objective progressively harder benchmarks.


    More important than whatever metric I list, what would you deem an objective benchmark or set of benchmarks?

    At some level if proficiency can't be defined or objectively tested then you could just always arbitrarily tell someone they've fallen short.
    Set goals. Crush 'em. Repeat.
    I like the goals in Stoeger's new book. First learn to shoot a match safely with no penalties or misses then progress to learning the speed.
    If that's what you want to achieve, do it! Practice, practice practice. Be comfortable with failure. Failure is perfectly okay given it's in a safe context. Failure with gun training doesn't have to mean shooting yourself in the leg. Keep pushing your abilities and you will achieve your goals!
    "Shooting is 90% mental. The rest is in your head." -Nils

  5. #95
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    I will slightly disagree in a humorous incident. I was playing golf and way down the fairway was a foursome. We wanted to tee off, so we yelled and screamed "Fore" as one should. I was reluctant to to swing but a buddy said to go ahead as you can't hit that far and probably won't tag anyone. Straight as a rocket, went my shot into the back of one of the foresome.

    Is that like a Cooper rule violation? Back to the issue, I think Cecil nailed it. I also think that different classes can teach different aspects and some integrate them. Self-taught is fine by as he said, professional observation picks up things you never saw, felt or knew.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    It’s kind of like learning to play golf but only training on an astroturf driving mat.

    You can develop a great swing, but it’s not the same thing as playing golf in its entirety.

    It doesn’t discount the effort and achievement of being able to drive golf balls, but it’s not the entirety of the game.
    True.

    https://youtu.be/hvrAbHJNLuY
    In the P-F basket of deplorables.

  7. #97
    Member
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    Nov 2011
    Location
    Free state of Idaho
    Shooting a match every weekend for ten years, I progressed from D to the cusp of Master, without having taken instruction of any kind.
    I know a guy who went from D to GM in about ten months, and don't know that he had any instruction along the way, either?

  8. #98

    About those gravel pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Borderland View Post
    Gravel pits are dangerous. Local guy was just killed by a friend who shot him in the chest with an "unloaded'' AK. I read the news story and then my neighbor told me he knew the guy who was killed through his son and his girlfriend.

    The safety factor cannot be stressed enough IMO. Our range has an RSO when it's open to the public and generally 4 or 5 people who have been thru RSO training who assist. They now require new members to take the NRA Home Firearm Safety Class. That started last year I think.
    Very good point. Gravel pits have accidental dangers as well as predator dangers. For the noob folks, a gravel pit is where Platt and Mattix picked up a car they used in the first of their (known) robberies that led up to the 1986 Miami Shootout.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    As I stated in my first post, you *could* become "proficient" in those things with nothing but the internet, but it's unlikely, and my bet is that for the vast majority of people that aren't savants the first time you are truly objectively tested outside metrics that are entirely within your control you will fail.
    That is a big part of the reason why I said I think more folks really should attend good force-on-force classes.

  10. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by NoTacTravis View Post
    Thanks for taking the time to consider my post! I like your attribute and skills listing of "the draw, reload, shooting while moving, moving to shoot, unconventional positions, etc." and ruling out only looking at bullseye style marksmanship (I'm ASSuming that's what you refer to with base marksmanship align sights pull trigger) as a standalone metric.

    On his site Gabe White lists:
    https://www.gabewhitetraining.com/te...-skills-tests/

    A tactical level of proficiency in core technical skills of drawing and shooting

    Bill Drill, 3.50 (Theoretical Breakdown: 1.50 + .40 + .40 + .40 + .40 + .40)
    Failure to Stop, 2.90 (Theoretical Breakdown: 1.50 + .40 + 1.00)
    Immediate Incapacitation, 3.00 (Theoretical Breakdown: 2.00 + 1.00)
    Split Bill Drill, 4.70 (Theoretical Breakdown: 1.50 + .40 + .40 + .40 + 1.00 + 1.00)

    This seems to best match the thread title of "Are classes the only way of becoming proficient?" as it includes a class based standard labeled as proficiency by a well respected trainer.


    My personal objective benchmarks I plan on attaining initially are:

    -5 second FAST (talked about too much on P-F for me not to be able to execute this)
    -IDPA Expert classification (this was my first goal from reading a lot before I fired my first shots and was looking for an objective benchmark before starting the journey. I'd like to make sure to follow through on it.) Lots of shooting from unconventional positions to be found here typically.
    -2 second BILL drill (It's on too many lists for me to consider myself adequate if I can't do it on demand).
    -USPSA "A" Class (I don't plan on having to practice for classifiers but will if it's required to make my goal. I mention this because USPSA should handle the "moving while shooting part" but classifications can be gamed to achieve this through stand and shoot skills alone.

    *I really don't anticipate a problem with "moving TO shoot" (assuming you don't mean "shooting on the move"). It's too much fun to practice not to end up good at rushing to and from a position to shoot on the clock.



    I assume that to be absolutely the case. Then I'll go work on my now glaringly revealed shortcomings and go back and do it again, lather rinse repeat. That should be the basic premise of an independent course of study to attain objective progressively harder benchmarks.


    More important than whatever metric I list, what would you deem an objective benchmark or set of benchmarks?

    At some level if proficiency can't be defined or objectively tested then you could just always arbitrarily tell someone they've fallen short.
    Your "opportunity cost" comments in post #70 of this thread seem to conflict with the metrics you've set. If resources are very limited, you should probably narrow down and focus your "why."

    Acknowledging that this is the "Competition Skills" sub-forum on Pistol-Forum, I should be clear that "it's a free country," as they say. If you want to get really, really good at the shooty stuff, just because, then rock on with your bad 'ol self. Set whatever kick-ass standards you want get after it.

    That said, if you're primary goal is personal defense, I suspect you'd do well to look to the standards of instructors like @Tom Givens, @Darryl Bolke, @Wayne Dobbs, and commentary by guys like @Cecil Burch @SouthNarc, @Paul Sharp and Varg Freeborn, for instance. I suspect that anyone on the high side of "C" class has sufficient raw marksmanship skill to do really well in those standards, and therefore do well in a personal defense shooting. To that point, The Tactical Professor Claude Werner's minimum effective standards are even more modest. Fortunately, acquiring and maintaining that level of skill probably won't require a ton of practice, ammo and time away from family.

    On the other hand, personal defense is multi-disciplinary. Shooting is only one of the skillsets that a well rounded personal defense practitioner ought to be familiar with, and arguably the least likely to be used in a personal defense encounter. Being physically strong and healthy, along with competency in

    Awareness and Avoidance
    MUC (Managing Unknown Contacts)
    OC Spray
    Hand to Hand fighting (such as BJJ or boxing)
    managing in-fight stress response
    medical training
    low light shooting
    defensive weapons flow
    force on force validation
    managing the after action
    use of force legalities

    are more likely to affect the outcome than having "A class" shooty skills. IF personal defense is the primary goal, I suspect getting "C class" competency in most or all of those skillsets is more valuable than becoming A, M, or GM in just shooting. If you can consistently pass the more respectable LE quals or Tom Givens standards, for instance, then time and resources may be better spent pursuing family time, health and wellness, general preparedness (food, water, power, shelter) and competency at those other defensive skills.

    Of course, you do you.

    ***I am in not remotely an expert on any of this. That's why I qualify everything with "I suspect..." This is my imperfect understanding from listening those who are. I hope the knowledgable folks will push back if I'm full of poop. ***
    David S.

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